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Author Topic: Ethics & The Use of Magic  (Read 18142 times)
Jorgath
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« Reply #60: September 17, 2007, 09:04:35 pm »

And lets not forget that this is simply a single line out of  - well, there's a couple different versions with different line counts - twenty-six lines?  I'm not Wiccan and the Rede has a lot to do with that.  I disagree strongly with many of it's points but none more so than having the entire code reduced down to a single line, or worse, two words. 

Actually, I've always gotten the impression that the two lines were the Rede, and the poem was just a nice little mnemonic device that doesn't work very well.
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rose
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« Reply #61: September 17, 2007, 10:14:49 pm »

Why should I become that which has harmed me?  Doesn't that mean that they have totally and completely succeeded in destroying who I am?  Why give them that kind of significance in my life?  I would much rather shift my vibration to a higher frequency and simply become invisible to those who cannot perceive it.

yes, exactly. you put it in much less cranky terms than I did Smiley
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« Reply #62: September 18, 2007, 09:47:47 am »

Actually, I've always gotten the impression that the two lines were the Rede, and the poem was just a nice little mnemonic device that doesn't work very well.

That's all that most sources present it as, but there's a bit more to it than "An if it harm none, do what ye will."   Here's one version of the full rede: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos301.htm
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Nyktipolos
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« Reply #63: September 18, 2007, 11:53:17 am »


I wasn't sure who to respond to, but it was kind of following the current train of thought.

On an online discussion that was happening on another forum, someone was asking for proof that magic exists, such as doing large "magical" displays (think fireballs.. literally). After the OP was lambasted for being ignorant (and posting on a movie forum, all things considered), the Wiccan Rede came up, as it seems to happen sooner or later. The usual arguments insued about how the Rede can be interpreted (including one person who said that "we" should attack no one under any circumstances), and this came up:

"If I see a fireball coming right at me, I'll reach for my shotgun and ask questions later."

... I live by those words.
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« Reply #64: September 18, 2007, 12:54:22 pm »


"If I see a fireball coming right at me, I'll reach for my shotgun and ask questions later."

... I live by those words.

I like that Smiley
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« Reply #65: September 18, 2007, 01:01:38 pm »

"If I see a fireball coming right at me, I'll reach for my shotgun and ask questions later."

... I live by those words.

Quite!  (points to shotgun) "You see this? THIS... is my BOOM STICK!"   (And I'll now apologize to everyone for the bad b-movie quote and slink away).
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« Reply #66: September 18, 2007, 01:16:35 pm »

Quite!  (points to shotgun) "You see this? THIS... is my BOOM STICK!"   (And I'll now apologize to everyone for the bad b-movie quote and slink away).

... I know of that quote from a game that too it from that movie. Ahh.. gotta love Malkavians. *lamer*
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« Reply #67: September 18, 2007, 02:15:44 pm »

I'm going to hang this off your post, juniperr, as it's tangentially related.

Remember that experiment back in high school science class where you had two tuning forks on either side of the room?  The teacher would strike one and the other one across the room would ring faintly?  That's how I view my magic.  It's not necessarily that some great being is going to step out of the clouds and smite me nor is it that I'm obsessed with having to receive payback for karmic misdeeds in a future incarnation.

I see myself as a tuning fork vibrating in the cosmos.  The frequency that I vibrate at will attract like frequencies to me.  If I choose to vibrate at a 'perceived' higher level then that is what I will attract to me.  Conversely, the same will happen if I choose to vibrate at a 'perceived' lower level.  This is the issue I have when casting hexes/curses/what-have-you.  What I have to become in order for those spells to work, i.e. the frequency I have to vibrate at in order to cast that energy out into the cosmos, is just not worth it.  Why should I become that which has harmed me?  Doesn't that mean that they have totally and completely succeeded in destroying who I am?  Why give them that kind of significance in my life?  I would much rather shift my vibration to a higher frequency and simply become invisible to those who cannot perceive it.

Sorry to quote your whole post, but it's for my own reference. May I please use this? It's a good lesson. Smiley
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« Reply #68: September 18, 2007, 02:17:51 pm »

I like that Smiley

Me too. Wink
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« Reply #69: September 18, 2007, 02:54:47 pm »

Sorry to quote your whole post, but it's for my own reference. May I please use this? It's a good lesson. Smiley

Mari, if you can find some use for it you are quite welcome to do so.  I find it to be a great visualization and while I may not keep this in my mind at all times I feel it is certainly worth striving for.

I've actually gone back and re-read that a few times, myself.  I'm kinda a little surprised that I wrote it to be honest.  I've been in such a muddled space lately that putting something that clear down makes me sit back and think, "Huh.  How 'bout that?"
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"Then I will tell you a great secret, Captain. Perhaps the greatest of all time. The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make up this station, and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are starstuff. We are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out. As we have both learned, sometimes the universe requires a change of perspective. " ~ Delenn, Babylon 5
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« Reply #70: September 18, 2007, 03:01:47 pm »

I've actually gone back and re-read that a few times, myself.  I'm kinda a little surprised that I wrote it to be honest.  I've been in such a muddled space lately that putting something that clear down makes me sit back and think, "Huh.  How 'bout that?"

I love it when that happens. Wink

Thanks! Cheesy
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SunflowerP
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« Reply #71: September 18, 2007, 07:36:08 pm »

And lets not forget that this is simply a single line out of  - well, there's a couple different versions with different line counts - twenty-six lines?  I'm not Wiccan and the Rede has a lot to do with that.  I disagree strongly with many of it's points but none more so than having the entire code reduced down to a single line, or worse, two words. 

Actually, I've always gotten the impression that the two lines were the Rede, and the poem was just a nice little mnemonic device that doesn't work very well.

That's all that most sources present it as, but there's a bit more to it than "An if it harm none, do what ye will."   Here's one version of the full rede: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos301.htm
Time to put on my "neoPagan history geek" hat, I see.

The 26-line poem "The Rede of the Wiccae" comes from Lady Gwynne Thompson of NECTW, which is TIW (Traditional Initiatory Witchcraft), not Wicca.  She attributed it to her grandmother, but its first verifiable appearance was in an article she wrote for Green Egg magazine in 1975.

The final line of the poem ("Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfil - An it harm none, do what ye will"), OTOH, can be traced back to a speech made by Doreen Valiente in 1964, and subsequently quoted in Pentagram magazine.

It's my understanding that, among BTWs, the poem is considered "applicable and wise", rather than "core material" as the eight-word Rede is.  Hopefully Sine or Malkin (or better still, both, and any other BTW initiates who are around) will come along and - to the extent their oaths permit - confirm, correct, and/or elaborate.

Lots more info on the traceable history of the Rede can be found at The Wiccan Rede: A Historical Journey.

Sunflower
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« Reply #72: September 18, 2007, 11:26:32 pm »

It's my understanding that, among BTWs, the poem is considered "applicable and wise", rather than "core material" as the eight-word Rede is.  Hopefully Sine or Malkin (or better still, both, and any other BTW initiates who are around) will come along and - to the extent their oaths permit - confirm, correct, and/or elaborate.

*gasp* I got referred to! Cheesy hee hee.

I took an oath to abide by the eight-word Rede (which I can announce because I'm allowed to tell people what I can and can't do). However, I can neither confirm nor deny whether the full poem is taught as part of our official material. But what Sunflower says about its origins are true. Admittedly, some modern material has been incorporated into what is passed down. (But you didn't hear it from me! Grin) But not everything that is passed down for a useful lesson is considered "holy writ." (In fact, probably none of it is - I always like to say that BTW tradition is a collection of "customs of worship" rather than a collection of "rules for living.")
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Foxglove: We did this. Or something like this. We had water and salt, not blood. We invoked the goddess in her aspect as the moon. We called down her power...
Thessaly: Did she answer you?
Foxglove: Well, it felt good at the time. Empowering.
Thessaly: Hmph.

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