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Author Topic: Summerland and Reincarnation  (Read 11995 times)
Journey
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« Reply #15: September 19, 2007, 08:51:45 pm »

I feel that the old "places" are sort of reawakening (and also that many of the ancient Gods and Goddesses are being reawakened as well). Sort of a "please excuse our dust as we remodel".

LOL -great expression!  Love it!
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« Reply #16: September 20, 2007, 07:28:09 am »

With Samhain quickly approaching, I've been thinking a great deal about what happens to us after death. This is the time of year when the veil thins, and those with mediumistic talent attempt to contact ancestors and others who have gone on. However, many pagans also subscribe to belief in reincarnation. How does one reconcile these two set of "beliefs"?

Is a part of your soul and your personality archived away in the Summerland, for your descendants to contact and seek guidance/protection of?
Are you fully reincarnated, and when the living try to contact the dead - are they summoning something else? A thoughtform? a spirit of some kind?
Is past life regression work worthwhile?

Just curious what everyone thinks about this.

This is a great topic, for me it is Ostara that is around the corner and not Samhain, but that is neither here for there. 

Okay, what do I believe?

I believe in reincarnation.  I have never really considered to what extend I believe in it though.  Is it for everyone, isn't it? So these are new things I will have to work out, but since religion is very personal to me I will tell you what I believe in relation to me. 

I believe that I will be reincarnated, but it won't be me as I am now.  I think that each life that one leads is different, the person they are is different.  They could be male or female, rich or poor, 'good' or 'bad'.  In this way i guess you could say that one is never the same person twice.  So as for your mention of whether you can honor and call on acenstors once they have passed if you believe in reincarnation I think that yes you could probably.  Well, I'm more one for honoring and acknowledging that the person they once was has passed beyond then really trying to communicate with them. 

But then how can one be reincarnated you might ask, if you are not the person you are when you die? Well that is because I believe that your soul, your essence lives on.  The person that I am now is not my soul, my soul makes up this person, but so many other things do too.  My life expereinces, family, up bringing, economic situation, and countless others.  But I believe that the person, the life I have now is important for the journey of my soul.  Because the lessons I will learn and experiences i will have and the relizations I will come to will help my soul to grow, to rise to a higher level, a level that is closer to divinity itself - whatever that my be. 

It is hard to explain where I got these notions from, I am not even sure myself, I think I have taken a bit of this and a bit of that and made something that works best for me.  So I hope that I have not offended anyone by my thoughts, as I said it's all very personal and I often feel odd sharing my ideas because I know most people look at me as though I am crazy.

You know when you just feel deep down that this is right, well that is me, and until I find something that changes my mind, I guess I'll carry on.

Thanks again for this great thread!

((hugs))

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« Reply #17: September 20, 2007, 07:58:16 am »

But then how can one be reincarnated you might ask, if you are not the person you are when you die? Well that is because I believe that your soul, your essence lives on.  The person that I am now is not my soul, my soul makes up this person, but so many other things do too.  My life expereinces, family, up bringing, economic situation, and countless others.  But I believe that the person, the life I have now is important for the journey of my soul.  Because the lessons I will learn and experiences i will have and the relizations I will come to will help my soul to grow, to rise to a higher level, a level that is closer to divinity itself - whatever that my be. 

It is hard to explain where I got these notions from, I am not even sure myself, I think I have taken a bit of this and a bit of that and made something that works best for me.  So I hope that I have not offended anyone by my thoughts, as I said it's all very personal and I often feel odd sharing my ideas because I know most people look at me as though I am crazy.

You know when you just feel deep down that this is right, well that is me, and until I find something that changes my mind, I guess I'll carry on.

Thanks again for this great thread!

Not crazy at all, fits right in with what I believe.  Smiley
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« Reply #18: September 20, 2007, 02:30:52 pm »

But then how can one be reincarnated you might ask, if you are not the person you are when you die? Well that is because I believe that your soul, your essence lives on.  The person that I am now is not my soul, my soul makes up this person, but so many other things do too.  My life expereinces, family, up bringing, economic situation, and countless others.  But I believe that the person, the life I have now is important for the journey of my soul.  Because the lessons I will learn and experiences i will have and the relizations I will come to will help my soul to grow, to rise to a higher level, a level that is closer to divinity itself - whatever that my be.

Crazy?  Nah.  That's pretty much in line with how I view things.  The soul is on a journey to learn and grow and eventually reunite with the divine where it originally split off from.  In order to do so, the soul has incarnations in the physical realm where it takes on a physical body and accompanying personality in order to learn different lessons.  Once each life has completed, the soul returns to a repository of knowledge (I view it as an actual library) and records what it has learned so that other souls may benefit from it's experiences.

Where did I get this view point?  I really couldn't say.  It developed over a life time.
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« Reply #19: September 20, 2007, 02:46:25 pm »

But then how can one be reincarnated you might ask, if you are not the person you are when you die? Well that is because I believe that your soul, your essence lives on.  The person that I am now is not my soul, my soul makes up this person, but so many other things do too.  My life expereinces, family, up bringing, economic situation, and countless others.  But I believe that the person, the life I have now is important for the journey of my soul.  Because the lessons I will learn and experiences i will have and the relizations I will come to will help my soul to grow, to rise to a higher level, a level that is closer to divinity itself - whatever that my be.

Beautifully said and one of the least "crazy" conceptualizations of reincarnation I've read.  Thanks for sharing it!  Smiley
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« Reply #20: September 21, 2007, 05:37:55 pm »

I have to agree with Dania. I believe that what happens to you after death is determined by what you believe and what gods you believe in decide. Because I donít think that one belief should trump another simply because that belief is mine. All religions are valid. All beliefs are valid.

I'm going with Dania and Reona as well. Everyones afterlife is different.

Personally, I'm of the recycle camp. The soul is eternal, although it can and probably does splinter off little bits from time to time because it is changing. What makes us different each time around is the culture we grow up in, that changes what our souls extend outwards into a different thing. Its the same.. but different.

Hm.
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« Reply #21: September 22, 2007, 04:07:39 am »

Of course, I've pretty much operated within a paradigm of Karma and Reincarnation, even though it causes my personal experience to occasionally rub up uncomfortably with the Wiccan Rede and the 3 Fold Law. What Malkin says gives me a great deal of food for thought.

*bows* Happy to be of service!

May I ask, why do you feel that the idea of karma clashes with the Rede and the Threefold Law?
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« Reply #22: September 22, 2007, 09:44:05 pm »

Just curious what everyone thinks about this.
I think, like no one religion is any better than another, every belief regarding afterlife is valid. I am sort of of the view that... your soul is a type of energy, and this energy exists in all atoms (this is about as far as my animism goes. lol). So your collective atoms that make up your body is made into a soul in this life and is (most of the time) connected with your body. Thus, when you die and your body decomposes, your soul "decomposes" with it. Some experiences may or may not stay connected with that energy. And sort of like the "water pitcher" theory, you may get some similar atoms that create another body and hence some past life memories. Or something, anyway. Wink No matter is every created or destroyed, and I don't think spirits or souls are either.

That said, I think there are some select spirits, be they guides or what have you, that move through time as a complete unit, and may come into this plane several times, to move up to different planes and perhaps back again. I'm not so sure about the mechanics, but I do know that I have met some guides in physical form whose consciousnesses were very much intact after their body died.

Really though, I don't think the afterlife matters much. Me as I know myself now will not exist anymore. So the important part is to live and learn and enjoy life while you are here!
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« Reply #23: September 22, 2007, 11:09:00 pm »

May I ask, why do you feel that the idea of karma clashes with the Rede and the Threefold Law?

I don't think Karma, the Rede and the Threefold Law clash necessarily - I think they're actually in the same vein. Although, I do think the three-fold law is kinda overkill and is more of a scare tactic than reality (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction?).

What I was trying to say succintly is that my personal experience is that karma/the Rede/Three Fold Law are not necessarily in operation. It seems to me that I rarely see people get their comeuppance, good or bad, myself included.

Furthermore, I was sort of intrigued when I was reading Phyllis Curott's book "Witchcrafting", especially when she focuses on ethics and the Rede/Three Fold Law. She basically says that it is not an ethical philosophy and instead is a form of negative reinforcement. The premise of the Rede/Three Fold Law in her opinion is that Witches do not curse or manipulate others out of self-preservation; a desire to keep bad things from happening to themselves. She does say however, that if a Wiccan truly experiences communion with the divine, they will not want to "do harm" because they will recognize from their own experience that All are connected and it would be akin to hurting yourself if you purposefully caused harm to another. I'm not sure I agree with the second half of what she says, but it did get me to thinking...

Sometimes I feel like I've been hiding behind the "Power of Karma" or the Three-Fold Law to mete out justice on my behalf. I sometimes wonder if this is just the coward's way out - that by not purposefully ever "doing harm" that in some way, I'm just not standing up for myself. That I let others walk all over me and foolishly waiting for the universe to award me with the jackpot of good karma that I've been saving up by refraining from cursing those (and some of those who sorely deserve it! LOL) I have had the unfortunate luck in crossing paths.

I hope that explains a bit better what I meant
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« Reply #24: September 23, 2007, 02:42:45 am »

I hope that explains a bit better what I meant

I wanted to add something to hopefully further clarify what I've been mulling over for some time now.

When another person has clearly "done me wrong" and I discuss the situation with friends, I always get the same response. Although they agree that I've been "done wrong", they always say some variation of, "but, it's just not worth it" when it comes to discussing any type of spellwork that would be directed at the "wrong-doer".

What I've been thinking about is: why isn't it worth it? Am I being wise by continuing to harm none and leaving it to the universe to mete out justice? Am I being Pollyanna and Fluffy about it? If I do spellwork directed at another, even if its just a "live miserably and friendless you sack of $&!%" will it somehow poison my soul and embitter me? Does karma exist? What would be the repercussions of such a spell if it does exist and operate?

These are just the type of things that run through my head, because truth be told, I've met (and I think everyone has met) people who really, really deserve some bad stuff to happen to them. Yet, they seem to just go on about their business, happy and whatnot. No "bad karma" ever seems to be repaid to them, no matter how richly deserved. Likewise, I've met good, hardworking, honest and scrupulous people who seem to constantly have bad luck that follows them like their shadow. It's this kind of randomness that sometimes has me questioning the "law of karma", or at least its constant operation.
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« Reply #25: September 23, 2007, 10:51:04 am »

What I've been thinking about is: why isn't it worth it? Am I being wise by continuing to harm none and leaving it to the universe to mete out justice? Am I being Pollyanna and Fluffy about it? If I do spellwork directed at another, even if its just a "live miserably and friendless you sack of $&!%" will it somehow poison my soul and embitter me? Does karma exist? What would be the repercussions of such a spell if it does exist and operate?

There's an explanation I like a lot for this one: it ties into some of the ways I approach concepts like the Rede, to do a cross-discussion. Someone I know with Feri training described a concept that I believe was articulated in this way there:

Think of your self - and particularly, your magic - as like a cast-iron cauldron. Everything you do in that cauldron 'seasons' it, in one way or another. As it builds up seasoning, it's easier to use, it's more effective, and it imparts a flavor and character to everything you do in it that is consistent (with slow changes over time.)

Now, imagine you want to do something which is counter to the normal kinds of cooking you do in it - something that involves agressive chemical combinations that will noticeably affect and alter the seasoning in your pot. You've spent  a lot of time and energy building up that seasoning: if you cook this one dish in there, you're going to need to invest more time and energy in dealing with the consequences - not just to the other people eating the dish, but to you, and to your tool (because you're not going to be able to use it in the same exact way for a while: you're either going to have to totally scrub it out and start from scratch, or work on rebuilding the seasoning you prefer and normally use.)

How worthwhile is that one dish?

Same parallel for magic: there *are* times that I think it's worthwhile to go there - but I think they're very very rare (and should be.) They should be a decision that should be made very carefully - and with a very clear eye on the possible long-term consequences to you, to other magical or ritual work you do, to how this action will affect how you interact with other people, and so on. There are times all those consequences are obvious - there are times they aren't
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« Reply #26: September 23, 2007, 11:16:41 am »

There's an explanation I like a lot for this one: it ties into some of the ways I approach concepts like the Rede, to do a cross-discussion. Someone I know with Feri training described a concept that I believe was articulated in this way there:

What Jenett said Smiley

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« Reply #27: September 23, 2007, 03:46:42 pm »

How worthwhile is that one dish?

Ahh. Thank you! That is actually a most helpful analogy.

Just to be clear, I've never, ever performed any type of magick or spell that is harmful to others. I've always focused my work on self-transformation and/or asking for the things I think I need. It's just sometimes frustrating when you have to deal with others who are umm...just not very nice people and the consequences of the havoc they can wreak. It sometimes just makes me question if karma is really operating.

And this actually does have something to do with reincarnation in that, I haven't quite decided if karma is balanced within a single lifetime, each and every lifetime, or if it is something that transfers to following lifetimes.
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« Reply #28: September 24, 2007, 05:34:01 am »

Is a part of your soul and your personality archived away in the Summerland, for your descendants to contact and seek guidance/protection of?
Are you fully reincarnated, and when the living try to contact the dead - are they summoning something else? A thoughtform? a spirit of some kind?
Is past life regression work worthwhile?


I don't personally think that you can contact your ancestors, as I believe in reincarnation of one soul, over and over again. 

I think that when people try to contact the dead they either don't and think they do, or possibly come into contact with the creative force of the universe in one form or another.

I have to agree with a previous poster that past life regression is a bad idea, I mean, if you were meant to remember, you would, wouldn't you? Which is why I think there are people who remember their past lives, with no actual attempt to do so in the first place. I also think that when people try to remember their past lives the god/goddesses prank them with fake dreams, and chuckle at the results Smiley

Now, I mentioned I believe in reincarnation, and I should probably go over specifically what I mean. I, for one, don't believe in karma, per se. I believe when a person dies they cross the river to Summerland, and can remember all their lives and such that have happened, and realize what everything is like all together. The soul stays there until the gods and/or goddesses decide it's time for them to go out again, and they are reincarnated. I believe that people do this over and over and over until they have experienced every thing possible from all perspectives, including gender and religion. Yes, I believe that each soul must experience all religions. Once they have experienced everything the soul ascends and combines with the creative energies of the universe.

How is this possible, with the way things change so much, you may ask? Well, I believe that in Summerland time, as we see it, is non existent. All times and places are always available for souls to be reincarnated into at all times. Kind of like if you had a huge wall of all the movies that were ever and will ever be created and could watch any of them if you wanted to. Except the movies are times and places, and instead of watching them you enter them from birth till death. Grin

 
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« Reply #29: September 24, 2007, 09:19:32 am »

What I've been thinking about is: why isn't it worth it? Am I being wise by continuing to harm none and leaving it to the universe to mete out justice? Am I being Pollyanna and Fluffy about it? If I do spellwork directed at another, even if its just a "live miserably and friendless you sack of $&!%" will it somehow poison my soul and embitter me? Does karma exist? What would be the repercussions of such a spell if it does exist and operate?

These are just the type of things that run through my head, because truth be told, I've met (and I think everyone has met) people who really, really deserve some bad stuff to happen to them. Yet, they seem to just go on about their business, happy and whatnot. No "bad karma" ever seems to be repaid to them, no matter how richly deserved. Likewise, I've met good, hardworking, honest and scrupulous people who seem to constantly have bad luck that follows them like their shadow. It's this kind of randomness that sometimes has me questioning the "law of karma", or at least its constant operation.

When I meet people such as you have described who deserve to have bad things happen to them because they seem to be such evil people themselves I have a spell that might work. I call it "Love Bombing." Oh and let me just state for the record I have not tried out this spell yet, but I would since it seems a fairly harmless route in order to achieve your goal. I got the spell from a short story called The Spell in the book Witches Brew amazingly enough. It just made a lot of sense to me, and the basic philosophy behind it is in perfect harmony with my own beliefs.  The following spell is directly from the book, but I have modified it to be about Paula, an evil coworker, instead of about one's evil next-door neighbors; and to avoid plagirizing the short story it's from. Again all credit & exact copyright for this spell & the description thereof goes to the author of The Spell, David Gerrold.

This spell was created based off the Eastern disciplines of magick where magick cannot be done until one aligns themselves with the natural forces of chaos and order. Everything in the world exists based on these principles of creation and destruction. Once you realize this and align yourselves with these natural forces then instead of you attempting to control them, you only need a small nudge to steer them towards a goal. If you want to effect events in the world, but avoid a serious backlash of Karma in the physical world, then you must make sure that all magick you attempt and all spells you create are in harmony with what the Universe already wants to do. You're just helping the process along, not trying to change it or bend it. For that would be impossible and would only result in dire effects for you based on the attempt alone.

Instead of asking for harm, misery, woe, etc to come their way, ask instead for the Universe to help them on their path to Enlightenment, ask for them to be helped on their path to goodness and joy.

For example, you have a really nasty coworker, Paula, who is a gossip, backstabber, claims credit for work that is not her own, etc. What you could do is to ask the Universe to help her by a spell along these lines:

(1) Invoke the Universe however you feel most comfortable.

(2) Say something like "I only wish to work within the natural plans of the Universe, not to hinder or impede them in any way. I hope I can help and the Universe will allow me to be a part of its grander designs."

(3) Get right to the issue. Say that you are contacting the Universe about Paula. That you believe that she is hindering her natural rise towards Enlightenment and godliness. Perhaps through no fault of her own. Perhaps she has been seduced by the darker forces of nature. Perhaps there are reasons that I do not and cannot understand. Whatever forces are at work, I believe her to be "at odds with the natural flow of universal power and goodness." 1

(4) Describe what she does wrong in a constructive way. Such as "I believe that she is cut off from her natural ability to feel sympathy, empathy, and compassion for other people. I believe that she is not able to realize the effects she has on others. I believe that she does not see the pain that she leaves in her wake."

(5) Do whatever you want to do, make an offering at this point, etc.

(6) Ask the Universe to help Paula to get back into the natural flow of the Universe toward enlightenment. Please help her direct her "energies towards goodness and joy." 2   

(7) Thank the Universe and do whatever you need to to end the ritual.

Then just sit back and see what happens. But also realize that by "Love Bombing" someone you too will be helped on the path towards Enlightenment. And you energies will be directed towards goodness & joy. Everything that you ask for in the spell to happen to her will also happen to you. If that seems like something you could live with, then by all means try this spell out.

I personally think this is the only way to get "revenge" on someone. Because I do believe in Karma based on the experiences of my life. And I don't want to risk any bad Karma resulting from working spells to cause someone misery, woe, etc. I don't believe in the 3 fold law, but I do believe that what you send out there in thoughts, words, and deeds will come back to you in equal measure. This is based on a Buddhist belief I hold that I create my world through my own mind & actions; in the thoughts I speak, in the words I say, in the actions I take. It's based basically on a sympathetic energy type of system. If my thoughts, words, and actions are negative all the time, then I will attract negative things to my life. If my thoughts, words, and actions are positive, then I will attract positive things to my life.

And since you asked, enacting a traditional "revenge" spell like "I hope you blah, blah, blah" would have EXTREMELY negative reprecussions as far as I'm concerned. And the Universe works in subtle ways, so you'd never know how it would come back to you. The Universe is so freaking sneaky in how it does things, stuff could come back to you and you not even realize at the time. Just like all the bad karma that you want to catch up with those evil people is catching up with them. You don't know as you're not them. Maybe they always have to park WAY in the freaking back of any parking lot. Because they're never meant to get a parking space up front. Maybe birds always poo on their car right after they wash it. Maybe all their friends can't stand them and are leaving them because of who they have become. Maybe every time they cook, they burn their food. Even if they do everything perfectly, it would still burn. Because Karma comes back to you in an infinite number of unimaginable ways, both big and small. It's a very sneaky bugger.

And maybe the good people you know do bad things you don't know about. Maybe in their heads they are killing the boss they hate 25 times a day. Well all those thoughts and negative energy would add up, and cause bad karma for them. Maybe they say things like "I wish so-and-so would just die" or "I hate so-and-so," or "Oh my God, Becky! Look at her butt! It is so big"3 pretty much all the time. Well everytime you do that, that would enact bad karma based on the negative words and negative energy generated by those words.   

Also, in Buddhism disease, death, poverty, etc are not necessarily a result of Karma. They can be, but they are inherent to this world. They are considered the natural evils of the world which result from attachments. Buddha outlined this belief in the 4 Noble Truths:
1. Life means suffering. 
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The ceasation of attachment is attainable.
4. The defined path to the ceasation of attachment. Which is called the Eightfold Path.
For further information about the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, you can go to http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html.  You can also plug the words "four Noble Truths" or "Eightfold Path" into Google and explore which sites pop up from there.

My points are: (1) traditional revenge spells are always bad; (2) if you do one make sure that it's for an Enlightment and goodness, not for bad stuff; (3) no one knows everything that happens to anybody else, so Karma does exist and it is working; you just don't always know about it.

Alright so that's my own humble opinion on the matter. I hope it was interesting and informative. I know I'm long-winded and take WAY too long to explain anything, but I get that way when I have insomnia and don't sleep. So I apologize for that. But I have to go downstairs and make coffee now since I can't stand to face the day without a cup!

I hope you have a good day! I will post my beliefs on the afterlife another time.

~ Blue Lotus Child  Cheesy

1 The Spell by David Gerrold, published in Witches' Brew
2 The Spell by David Gerrold, published in Witches' Brew
3 Lyrics from the song "Baby Got Back" by Sir Mix-a-Lot
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