The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
July 02, 2020, 11:26:27 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 02, 2020, 11:26:27 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Ideas vs. Beliefs  (Read 12859 times)
Aster Breo
SIG Coordinator
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:January 29, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
United States United States

Religion: Feral Brighideach
TCN ID: Aster Breo
Posts: 5260


Avatar byJuni & Dania

Blog entries (0)


« Topic Start: September 23, 2007, 01:46:47 am »

I just finished watching the movie Dogma for the umpteenth time.

For some reason, this time, I keyed in on the part where Rufus explains to Bethany that the problem with religion is that people build *belief structures* rather than focusing on the *ideas*.

So, what, exactly, does that mean?  What's the difference between beliefs and ideas?
Logged

"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."  ~ George Bernard Shaw

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Cathira
Master Member
****
Last Login:November 01, 2008, 04:26:24 am
Australia Australia

Religion: Kemetically-influenced mental decoration & maintenance scheme
Posts: 252
Awards: Site Assistant


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #1: September 23, 2007, 03:02:50 am »

So, what, exactly, does that mean?  What's the difference between beliefs and ideas?

The size of your headache when attempting to sort it all out... Cheesy

I haven't seen Dogma, but I'd view this as being differences in flexibility. A belief can become set in stone (literally, if you believe the way the ten commandments were created in the Bible), while an idea is open to change.

I have ideas about reincarnation, religion, and the like, but they are constantly being updated as I discover new information and go through different experiences.

I have beliefs about family values - and these are not open to change. To use an example: I believe in discipline for children (not having your children afraid of you discipline, but firm rules and punishment for 'crimes'). I look at some parents who have no control over their children, and blame school, society, and everyone but themselves for the lack of discipline and respect their children show and I think "If these people had just shown a bit of backbone and disciplined their children they probably wouldn't have these issues."

Yes I know, I don't have kids yet and I'll probably have some monsters when I do. But you get the drift.

I think a lot of issues people have with major religions would fall by the wayside if people stopped looking at the associated dogma as a belief system, but rather as an 'ideas' system (IMHO).
Logged

I'm a cute kitty,
Small and pretty,
Feed me chocolate day and night,
Just be forewarned I have quite a bite!
EverFool
Board Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:September 16, 2011, 12:40:01 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: atheist
Posts: 2960


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #2: September 23, 2007, 04:51:46 am »


So, what, exactly, does that mean?  What's the difference between beliefs and ideas?

Your mileage may vary, etc etc, but this is my take:

An idea might be something like: 'we should look after the sick'

Beliefs might be '...because God said so/ Jesus died on the cross for our sins/ last night my fortune cookie told me so.'

The film was called 'Dogma' after all, so I guess the focus is on what you're doing and why.  The plot was pretty much about some people ignoring what they were *actually* doing, and exploiting a loophole that would make everything ok.  In theory.

By contrast the person who does good is a worker in an abortion clinic.


I think the line between 'belief' and 'idea' may be blurry, but I think you have to actively work to believe something.  An idea can be something you're less committed to, but think might work.
Logged

If anal prolapse teaches us anything, it's that it is what is inside that counts.
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #3: September 23, 2007, 11:45:28 am »


That was one of my favorite parts of the movie. Smiley

I also just recently read _The Parafaith War_, which also talks about this subject.

And what I've come away with is .. you have to be careful what you put your belief in.  Because once you say "because God says so" it becomes unquestionable.  And when you have a /human/ going around saying what it is God says and doesn't say, you CAN'T go back and change that.

"Be nice to people" is a good idea.  "God says to be nice to people and this is how" is a belief, and it's a belief that can be twisted.  it's easy to go from "God says X" to "God says X and we do X by doing Y" and then you get stuck because you can't question God, right?

Reminds me of how you define "Family values" as things like anti-gay, and then when you disagree with that, you're anti-family.  It's all about definition.  If you can convince people that what God says is inviable and you can't question it, God can say ANYTHING.  And you can't question it.
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
Journey
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:February 13, 2010, 04:43:29 pm
United States United States

Religion: None
Posts: 1821


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #4: September 23, 2007, 12:01:51 pm »

So, what, exactly, does that mean?  What's the difference between beliefs and ideas?

After consulting a dictionary or two:

Belief - a trust or confidence in something
Idea - a thought or opinion
Faith - acceptance of belief without proof

Therefore the following could be said:

I belive there is an afterlife. (personal concept)

I think there is an afterlife. (personal opinion)

I know there is an afterlife. (certain without proof)
Logged
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:June 23, 2020, 07:47:48 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #5: September 23, 2007, 04:59:31 pm »

And what I've come away with is .. you have to be careful what you put your belief in.  Because once you say "because God says so" it becomes unquestionable.  And when you have a /human/ going around saying what it is God says and doesn't say, you CAN'T go back and change that.

I guess this is why I would never make it as a fundie -- "because God says so" just makes me question the claim more. How do we know "God says this"?  How much of it is "God says" and how much of it is what you say. Etc.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Aster Breo
SIG Coordinator
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:January 29, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
United States United States

Religion: Feral Brighideach
TCN ID: Aster Breo
Posts: 5260


Avatar byJuni & Dania

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #6: September 23, 2007, 08:47:19 pm »

I'd view this as being differences in flexibility. A belief can become set in stone (literally, if you believe the way the ten commandments were created in the Bible), while an idea is open to change.

I think this makes some sense, and it's related to my instinctive answer.  For me, I *think*, an idea happens in my head, while a belief happens in my heart.

I think you're right that an idea is easier to change, while things that I feel...well...heartfelt...are less flexible.

If that made any sense...
Logged

"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."  ~ George Bernard Shaw
Purplewitch
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 03, 2009, 02:04:40 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: kitchenWitch with Celtic Condiments
Posts: 1621


Blog entries (2)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7: September 24, 2007, 12:24:47 pm »

I think this makes some sense, and it's related to my instinctive answer.  For me, I *think*, an idea happens in my head, while a belief happens in my heart.

I think you're right that an idea is easier to change, while things that I feel...well...heartfelt...are less flexible.

If that made any sense...

Makes sense to me too, it'd take an awful lot more to make me reconsider something I *believe*, and doing so, depending on the case, might well result in a lot of changes to the way I look at things all round, whereas it'd take a lot less to change an idea or opinion, and the ramifications would (probably) be a lot less.
Flexibility in not so few words lol

I can't say for certain that it'd be impossible to make me reconsider things I believe but, as Spongebob says, "Good luck with that."

I was trying to think of an example that didn't involve tM (sorry) and finally came up with one... kinda.... simple as it sounds and much as I often say I dislike humanity as a species, I believe that people are all equal, in that we are all people, and no one person, or type of person should automatically be considered to have more inherent value than another, and we all deserve to have certain inalienable rights. (Doesn't mean I like most people but that's a side issue)

I cannot say that nothing could ever change that belief but I've never found anything that has. (Not saying I'd want it to either just using it as an example) I don't think anything could, but that's not quite the same as saying it would be impossible to do - as opposed to extremely difficult to do.

Clear as mud? amazing how long windedly you can say flexibility Wink
Logged

Go
Journeyman
***
Last Login:May 30, 2011, 10:32:23 pm
United States United States

Religion: A Process
Posts: 177

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #8: September 26, 2007, 04:05:27 pm »

I just finished watching the movie Dogma for the umpteenth time.

For some reason, this time, I keyed in on the part where Rufus explains to Bethany that the problem with religion is that people build *belief structures* rather than focusing on the *ideas*.

So, what, exactly, does that mean?  What's the difference between beliefs and ideas?

I guess in this context I see ideas as values and beliefs as rules.  Ex. "Chicken is nice." vs "We must eat Chicken."  The more rigid the adherence to the rule, the less we seem to embody the quality held up by the value that spawned it. 
Logged

Measure twice, cut once, and buy extra material anyway.
Juni
Adept Member
*****
*
*
Last Login:May 18, 2015, 04:18:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Misticism
TCN ID: Juni
Posts: 2302


Strive to be happy.

Blog entries (2)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9: September 26, 2007, 04:19:03 pm »

I guess in this context I see ideas as values and beliefs as rules.  Ex. "Chicken is nice." vs "We must eat Chicken."  The more rigid the adherence to the rule, the less we seem to embody the quality held up by the value that spawned it. 

Well said. I very much agree.
Logged


.: Eleven-Pm.org .:. updated 30 June :.

"I don't go anywhere without my mutated anthrax! 'Fer duck huntin." - Futurama
Rain
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:September 07, 2008, 12:31:39 am
Canada Canada

Religion: Panentheist
Posts: 80


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #10: November 04, 2007, 12:38:34 pm »

I just finished watching the movie Dogma for the umpteenth time.

For some reason, this time, I keyed in on the part where Rufus explains to Bethany that the problem with religion is that people build *belief structures* rather than focusing on the *ideas*.

So, what, exactly, does that mean?  What's the difference between beliefs and ideas?

To me an idea is a thing I have in the moment, a belief is an idea that I won't let go of.  Or in other words, beliefs are more permanent and seem more objective to me.  It just seems that holding onto beliefs can prevent us from really examining ideas that may conflict with or challenge them.
Logged

Kasmira
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:July 29, 2017, 12:05:31 pm
United States United States

Religion: Buddhist and Daoist inspired something
TCN ID: Kasmira
Posts: 1582


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #11: November 04, 2007, 02:44:18 pm »

I think this makes some sense, and it's related to my instinctive answer.  For me, I *think*, an idea happens in my head, while a belief happens in my heart.

I think you're right that an idea is easier to change, while things that I feel...well...heartfelt...are less flexible.

If that made any sense...

Perfect sense. And I agree. My ideas are in my head, based on evidence, if the evidence changes or I come across more evidence then my ideas change. My beliefs come from my heart, and as there is no real evidence to back them up new evidence does not effect them so much, they are based on my faith in my heart to know what is right and true, they frequently evolve, but they rarely flat out change; and some of them may be wrong, but, since they are in the realm where I don't really feel that right and wrong are all that important, I don't really care.
Logged


Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss - Douglas Adams
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all - Oscar Wilde
The road to nowhere: My little foray into the blogoshpere
Mari
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 10, 2010, 03:39:46 pm
United States United States

Posts: 1160

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #12: November 04, 2007, 05:01:36 pm »

I guess this is why I would never make it as a fundie -- "because God says so" just makes me question the claim more. How do we know "God says this"?  How much of it is "God says" and how much of it is what you say. Etc.

Which is why in Gwyddonics we say "Believe nothing. Either you Know something, or you don't."
Logged
BGMarc
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 17, 2011, 09:57:32 pm
Australia Australia

Religion: Stoic (with declining druidic/wiccish hangovers and emergent Hellenic/Kemetic affiliations)
Posts: 1525


Blog entries (0)

Marc Larkin 6marc9
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #13: December 01, 2008, 07:22:55 am »

So, what, exactly, does that mean?  What's the difference between beliefs and ideas?

I always took it to mean sdomething like...

People hold on to practices and assertions, which they accept as sufficiently well founded to use without close consideration at each instance. Often, this repeated use without reconsideration or exploration leads people to forget the 'truths' about reality that were meant to be communicated. This can form chains such that people who have never investigated or known the 'truths' in the practices/assertions can pass them on without this context.

I'm not sure that it is restricted to religious beliefs though.
Logged

"If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered" Robin Tyler

It's the saddest thing in the world when you can only feel big by making others feel small. - UPG

Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. The sentence is death. There is no appeal and sentence is carried out automatically and without pity. Lazarus Long.

BGMarc at the Pub
Jabberwocky
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:October 15, 2018, 01:03:39 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Post-Chaote
Posts: 88


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #14: December 01, 2008, 09:47:52 am »

My ideas are concepts I find interesting.  My beliefs are concepts I find viable.  Both are liable to change, depending on experiences.
Logged

People who talk about revolution and class struggle without referring explicitly to everyday life, without understanding what is subversive about love and what is positive in the refusal of constraints, such people have a corpse in their mouth.
(Raoul Vaneigem)

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
out of ideas!
Prayer and Energy Requests
Ardista 2 1417 Last post September 07, 2007, 05:22:11 am
by Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
Ostara--Ideas?
Holidays and Festivals
Caomi_Brannon 7 6159 Last post March 08, 2008, 11:40:50 pm
by rose
Day of the Dead Ideas?
Holidays and Festivals
Violet 5 3231 Last post November 09, 2008, 10:59:20 pm
by SunflowerP
Ideas for Lavender? « 1 2 »
Witchcraft, Hoodoo, and Folk Magic
Mithril 15 4138 Last post February 15, 2009, 06:22:11 pm
by Journey
Your beliefs/ideas about afterlife « 1 2 »
Pagan Religions
Collinsky 26 6346 Last post July 15, 2010, 10:29:32 pm
by RootRealm
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.089 seconds with 53 queries.