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Author Topic: HomogePaganization  (Read 27097 times)
RandallS
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« Topic Start: October 11, 2007, 04:07:44 pm »


Web Site Article Discussion ThreadThis thread is for discussion of a specific article on our web site. Please limit discussion to questions and comments specific to this article. Feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate board if what you wish to discuss is not specific to the named article. Note that if you have arrived here from the discussion link on this article on our web site and are not a member of this message board, you will need to register an account to post in this thread. Thank you.

HomogePaganization

There seems to be a constant desire to recreate Paganism, a myriad of faiths that are less similar than different, into being one, single religion, with certain values and rules that all can agree to. Something to make Pagans a single political group, social group, and otherwise take the varied richness of what Paganism is, and turn it into a simple statement that comforts those that hear it, that recreates Paganism into something safe.

Read the Full Article
 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 04:19:31 pm by RandallS, Reason: in changed to is » Logged

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« Reply #1: October 11, 2007, 07:08:24 pm »

[modbreak=Web Site Article Discussion Thread]
This thread is for discussion of a specific article on our web site. Please limit discussion to questions and comments specific to this article. Feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate board if what you wish to discuss is not specific to the named article. Note that if you have arrived here from the discussion link on this article on our web site and are not a member of this message board, you will need to register an account to post in this thread. Thank you.
[/modbreak]

HomogePaganization

There seems to be a constant desire to recreate Paganism, a myriad of faiths that are less similar than different, into being one, single religion, with certain values and rules that all can agree to. Something to make Pagans a single political group, social group, and otherwise take the varied richness of what Paganism is, and turn it into a simple statement that comforts those that hear it, that recreates Paganism into something safe.

Read the Full Article
 

I've been a closet believer in Hellenismos for years, so I really haven't been an open member of the larger community which self-identifies as "Pagan". Who is exerting the pressure to lump all of us together?
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« Reply #2: October 11, 2007, 07:19:55 pm »

[modbreak=Web Site Article Discussion Thread]
This thread is for discussion of a specific article on our web site. Please limit discussion to questions and comments specific to this article. Feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate board if what you wish to discuss is not specific to the named article. Note that if you have arrived here from the discussion link on this article on our web site and are not a member of this message board, you will need to register an account to post in this thread. Thank you.
[/modbreak]

HomogePaganization

There seems to be a constant desire to recreate Paganism, a myriad of faiths that are less similar than different, into being one, single religion, with certain values and rules that all can agree to. Something to make Pagans a single political group, social group, and otherwise take the varied richness of what Paganism is, and turn it into a simple statement that comforts those that hear it, that recreates Paganism into something safe.

Read the Full Article
 

I think the desire to makes us one comes from those who fear being alone in their faith.  Who don't have the courage to really take the road leass travelled.  Our society pushes us to be part of a group (or of many groups) and in most cases doesn't truly value much in the way of individuality.  And so they want to create this fictional group called Pagans, when really that is about as defining as saying caucasian.  Yeah - I am mostly caucasian, but does that tell you much more than that most of my ancestors are from Europe?  No, it doesn't.  And saying we are all Pagans only says we are not Xtian, Jewish or Islamic, and self identify as Pagans.  Not really a coherent group there. Wink
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« Reply #3: October 11, 2007, 10:28:59 pm »

[modbreak=Web Site Article Discussion Thread]
This thread is for discussion of a specific article on our web site. Please limit discussion to questions and comments specific to this article. Feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate board if what you wish to discuss is not specific to the named article. Note that if you have arrived here from the discussion link on this article on our web site and are not a member of this message board, you will need to register an account to post in this thread. Thank you.
[/modbreak]

HomogePaganization

There seems to be a constant desire to recreate Paganism, a myriad of faiths that are less similar than different, into being one, single religion, with certain values and rules that all can agree to. Something to make Pagans a single political group, social group, and otherwise take the varied richness of what Paganism is, and turn it into a simple statement that comforts those that hear it, that recreates Paganism into something safe.

Read the Full Article
 

 I am extremely solitary in my practice and under a rock socially in the pagan community, but I had no idea that this was so. I go to the UU church pagan group in my city sometimes, and we are all different and have a great time circling together in our various ways. I am personally very eclectic, I serve Goddesses from Aphrodite to Kali, and Siva is the primary God that I talk to. I do occasionally run into very narrow minded and stupid pagans, but I know plenty of the same in other religions as well. I would very much like to see and read more about  the basis for HS's opinion. Could you maybe post articles or quotes that support your thesis?
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
RandallS
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« Reply #4: October 11, 2007, 10:38:16 pm »

Could you maybe post articles or quotes that support your thesis?

There are a huge number of 101 books that try very hard to make every Pagan religion into Wicca.

There was the whole PUC attempts to define Paganism (as, basically, Wicca) documented on our old Delphiforums board.

All the nonsense about "Pagans following the Rede" and celebrating the Wheel of the Year.
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« Reply #5: October 11, 2007, 10:41:41 pm »

I am extremely solitary in my practice and under a rock socially in the pagan community, but I had no idea that this was so. I go to the UU church pagan group in my city sometimes, and we are all different and have a great time circling together in our various ways. I am personally very eclectic, I serve Goddesses from Aphrodite to Kali, and Siva is the primary God that I talk to. I do occasionally run into very narrow minded and stupid pagans, but I know plenty of the same in other religions as well. I would very much like to see and read more about  the basis for HS's opinion. Could you maybe post articles or quotes that support your thesis?

I run into these pagans all the time. Probably because this is a serious hot button issue for most Pagans who are not of some Wiccan-based religion. You see it in many of the current pagan authors who have all pagans following the Rede or the Wheel or some other Wiccan influenced belief. You see it in many pagans who have never spoken to a Recon or who have any idea that there are religions that have nothing to do with Wicca.

I suspect if it's not a trigger, you may not notice it as much, but it is honestly everywhere.
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rose
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« Reply #6: October 11, 2007, 10:43:01 pm »

There are a huge number of 101 books that try very hard to make every Pagan religion into Wicca.

There was the whole PUC attempts to define Paganism (as, basically, Wicca) documented on our old Delphiforums board.

All the nonsense about "Pagans following the Rede" and celebrating the Wheel of the Year.

interesting, I guess I don't read 101 books, but it makes sense that they would be in them.
I would love to read the PUC stuff, could you maybe post a link?
I don't know anybody but wicca and wicca flavor witches who follow the rede. But I can see how there might be people who think that every pagan does.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
LyricFox
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« Reply #7: October 11, 2007, 10:56:57 pm »

interesting, I guess I don't read 101 books, but it makes sense that they would be in them.
I would love to read the PUC stuff, could you maybe post a link?
I don't know anybody but wicca and wicca flavor witches who follow the rede. But I can see how there might be people who think that every pagan does.

I don't read them either, but that's one of the primary places you find this nonsense.

This is probably one of the hottest hot button issues you'll find on TC. A whole lot of us have been informed we're not Pagan because we don't do X. Few things are guaranteed to piss most of us off faster than that.

I don't have a link handy to the old PUC discussions, but I know Star or Shadow does, so I suspect one of them will come in with it.
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« Reply #8: October 12, 2007, 12:01:15 am »

and we are all different and have a great time circling together in our various ways.

'Circling' is actually one of those concepts the essay is discussing.  There are many pagan religions with no connection to circles in their worship, but everyone knows the term from the wicca=pagan mindmeld and expects all pagans to be comfortable with it.

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« Reply #9: October 12, 2007, 12:12:23 am »

I don't have a link handy to the old PUC discussions, but I know Star or Shadow does, so I suspect one of them will come in with it.

Ask and ye shall recieve...  The two most relevant threads:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/CUSTOM7999/messages?msg=5924.1
http://forums.delphiforums.com/CUSTOM7999/messages?msg=5945.1

The first one is the actual PUC thread; the second one is the "New Definition of Paganism" thread that kind of tied into the whole situation too.  It may also be worth reading the essay I posted in this folder about why we're touchy about defining Paganism; it's not specifically about the whole homogenization thing, but some of the reasons why we're touchy are related to the issue.
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« Reply #10: October 12, 2007, 08:28:42 am »

'Circling' is actually one of those concepts the essay is discussing.

Exactly the problem, Pagan religions not related to Wicca generally do not worship in circles, do not call quarters, do cakes and wine, or any number of other similar things in their worship. Too many Pagans just assume that all Pagans do these things -- or worse, claim that those who do not are not really Pagan.
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« Reply #11: October 12, 2007, 09:37:59 am »

'Circling' is actually one of those concepts the essay is discussing.  There are many pagan religions with no connection to circles in their worship, but everyone knows the term from the wicca=pagan mindmeld and expects all pagans to be comfortable with it.

Absent

"Attempting to water down religion through statements made to unify those that have no desire to be unified only defeats the purpose of religion and turns it into yet another social club."

It would be really useful if the article used specific examples of this idea, as in Marilyn's post, instead of a broad statement like the one above from the article. I have not heard any such statements in my  extremely limited pagan social life, but would like to hear more of examples, more specifically, so I can judge for myself.
Thanks for posting the links, will read them later on Smiley
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #12: October 12, 2007, 11:25:25 am »

I run into these pagans all the time. Probably because this is a serious hot button issue for most Pagans who are not of some Wiccan-based religion. You see it in many of the current pagan authors who have all pagans following the Rede or the Wheel or some other Wiccan influenced belief. You see it in many pagans who have never spoken to a Recon or who have any idea that there are religions that have nothing to do with Wicca.

I suspect if it's not a trigger, you may not notice it as much, but it is honestly everywhere.

It's not limited to inside the Pagan community (using the term loosely here) either considering how many times I run into the whole Pagan = Wiccan thing amongst people generally.
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« Reply #13: October 12, 2007, 11:30:34 am »

It's not limited to inside the Pagan community (using the term loosely here) either considering how many times I run into the whole Pagan = Wiccan thing amongst people generally.

I think it's slightly more understandable in the general population, though, since Wicca is the most visible Pagan religion at the moment and a lot of info does (incorrectly) equate the two.  It's still not correct, of course, but I tend to give the general populace a little more of a "they may legitimately not know any better" break.
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« Reply #14: October 12, 2007, 11:45:49 am »

I am extremely solitary in my practice and under a rock socially in the pagan community, but I had no idea that this was so. I go to the UU church pagan group in my city sometimes, and we are all different and have a great time circling together in our various ways. I am personally very eclectic, I serve Goddesses from Aphrodite to Kali, and Siva is the primary God that I talk to. I do occasionally run into very narrow minded and stupid pagans, but I know plenty of the same in other religions as well. I would very much like to see and read more about  the basis for HS's opinion. Could you maybe post articles or quotes that support your thesis?

The attitude really is everywhere.  This march my SO and I were at a Pagan Pride thing that included a vendor fair.  We were vending.  There was a lot of pressure for us to be involved in what was a very Wiccan ritual.  His grandfather trained him in Shamanism from a Cherokee perspective.  I am very far removed from Wiccan.  It was a nice ritual, but had no personal religious significance to either of us.  We did not appreciate the pressure to join or the annoyance when we just kept a respectful distance and silence. 
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