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Author Topic: Pseudo History, Fluff Bunnies and Wicca  (Read 43965 times)
RandallS
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« Topic Start: October 11, 2007, 04:15:13 pm »


Web Site Article Discussion ThreadThis thread is for discussion of a specific article on our web site. Please limit discussion to questions and comments specific to this article. Feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate board if what you wish to discuss is not specific to the named article. Note that if you have arrived here from the discussion link on this article on our web site and are not a member of this message board, you will need to register an account to post in this thread. Thank you.

Pseudo History, Fluff Bunnies and Wicca

The following is long and a bit rambling. It is just some thoughts I have had going around in my head, and thought I would put down for personal clarity. These are just my opinions. I don't wish to imply that I have a unique and correct insight that others miss. This is simply the way I have seen things. I thought I would post this and give others the opportunity to comment one way or the other.

It is not really meant as a rant against fluff bunnies. Rather some observations of how and why things have gone the way they have in Wicca, and how I feel it effects me as an individual. I would really like to get some others' perspectives on the whole evolution of things, even from those non-Wiccans here.

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« Reply #1: October 11, 2007, 05:34:40 pm »

I would really like to get some others' perspectives on the whole evolution of things, even from those non-Wiccans here.

Good article, I agree with you on many points...  I guess the term I would use is that these self-proclaimed phony "Wiccans" are not killing Wicca, but cheapening the overall public opinion drastically.

Like you said, there is going to be evolution in thought, and with the progression of the internet, books being more widely available, and people coming together to share ideas, this is inevitable and largely a good thing.

The problem is that there is a type of person who flocks to Wicca (or magick in general) because they want to live a more magical life.  It doesn't matter to them why or how, they just want to play dress up for an hour and light a few candles.

I am a younger guy who is studying Wicca, and most people in the general public would probably think that this means I am some emo gay dude who sits around watching Buffy in my underpants all day.

None of these are true about me.  The thing that irks me the most is that people think Wicca = gay, when Wicca itself revolves around masculine and feminine divinity that is believed to be the cycle of all life.  But now because you have so many people running around calling themselves Wiccan because they want to feel liberated and "accepted", the whole truth behind Wicca goes down the drain and in the public eye it is akin to being a Trekkie or comic book nerd.  I have no problem with gay Wiccans, but I just hate having this stigma attached to Wicca in general.  I also wonder how the whole male/female polarity that is essential to true Wiccan ritual can take place when there is no internal attraction, but that is a discussion for a whole different day.

This is why I am interested in a more firm belief base, something in British Traditional Wicca.  Truthfully, I am not ready to be able to join any coven at this point in my life, but it is a long-term goal.  But until then, I will practice solitary but at the same time keep the ideals and values of REAL Wicca as my foundation of practice, at least the best this can be done.

The worst casualty in all of this confusion is that some of these self-proclaimed Wiccan gurus are going out into the wild in chatrooms, creating websites, etc... and telling people who are really seeking spiritual paths that all of the older stuff is wrong, outdated, ignorable, and to "just do whatever feels right to you, because all gods are one god (TM)!!!"

True story...  I recently joined PalTalk which is like a video/voicechat program.  One of the first things I did was check out a Wiccan room, and some woman came in asking for advice and I asked her what she had been reading.  Turns out she was reading Buckland's "Tree" book of Seax Wicca.  Before I could even give her a suggestion as to a book to read, this idiot starts spouting off about how dumb it is to read Buckland, to read a REAL author like Scott Cunningham, and how Buckland is "total fluff."  I was DUMBFOUNDED, I am not a Buckland cheerleader (like you said, I think his tone is a bit too authoritative) and I really started to get into it with the guy about giving people idiotic advice and we were both told to cool it since there was "no arguing allowed in the room."

So the woman ended up leaving the room and her mind filled with gibberish courtesy of some self-proclaimed expert.

The moral of the story is that fluff bunny Wicca stops being harmless when people are preaching to people that it is the REAL thing and all the others are "weird," "outdated," or worse of all "stupid."
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« Reply #2: October 11, 2007, 06:09:55 pm »

The thing that irks me the most is that people think Wicca = gay....

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone in the general public who thinks "Wicca = gay" (although I have encountered a few ultra-Feminist Wiccans who believe that all Wiccans really should all be female, lesbian, and male-haters). This "Wicca = gay" thing must be something fairly new or fairly regional.
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« Reply #3: October 11, 2007, 06:44:02 pm »

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone in the general public who thinks "Wicca = gay" (although I have encountered a few ultra-Feminist Wiccans who believe that all Wiccans really should all be female, lesbian, and male-haters). This "Wicca = gay" thing must be something fairly new or fairly regional.
It's not new, and I don't think it's strictly regional, but it's not widespread - my own experience is that, every now and again, I'll run across someone who has this idea.  I wonder, though, if it might be a more common misconception among younger folks, and that's why Derg Corra has run into it often enough that it's a pet peeve of his.

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« Reply #4: October 11, 2007, 07:30:01 pm »

It's not new, and I don't think it's strictly regional, but it's not widespread - my own experience is that, every now and again, I'll run across someone who has this idea.  I wonder, though, if it might be a more common misconception among younger folks, and that's why Derg Corra has run into it often enough that it's a pet peeve of his.

Sunflower

I have run into it, and it always strikes me as very funny because the Gods worshipped by most Wiccans (not BTW, because I don't know who their Gods) are VERY male.  Cernnunos anyone?Huh  I certainly don't get a feeling of anything but very strong male (heterosexual male) from him myself.  But I realize that could just be how I experience him....and I'm not naything that could be called Wiccan.

I do agree with much of what Tony M has to say in the article.  The reason I am vehemently NOT Wiccan is all the fluff that is passed off as Wiccan today.  The only route I would be willing to go (if it called me) would be something akin to BTW.  Because that (the public parts that Gardner and the Farrar's have let out) seems real tome.  Much of what is passed off today does not.
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« Reply #5: October 15, 2007, 02:31:12 am »

I have run into it, and it always strikes me as very funny because the Gods worshipped by most Wiccans (not BTW, because I don't know who their Gods) are VERY male.  Cernnunos anyone?Huh  I certainly don't get a feeling of anything but very strong male (heterosexual male) from him myself.  But I realize that could just be how I experience him....and I'm not naything that could be called Wiccan.

I've noticed that too, that the God that many Wiccans worship (most often of the fluffy variety) are very.. manly. And it seems that those that are not as 'manly' or are more ambiguous often duck under the radar.
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« Reply #6: October 15, 2007, 11:42:55 am »

I've noticed that too, that the God that many Wiccans worship (most often of the fluffy variety) are very.. manly. And it seems that those that are not as 'manly' or are more ambiguous often duck under the radar.

Pretty much. 

And perhaps it is, as Sunflower says, a more common misconception among younger folks.  Being old and decrepit I wouldn't know about that. 
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« Reply #7: October 15, 2007, 12:54:54 pm »

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone in the general public who thinks "Wicca = gay" (although I have encountered a few ultra-Feminist Wiccans who believe that all Wiccans really should all be female, lesbian, and male-haters). This "Wicca = gay" thing must be something fairly new or fairly regional.
I've seen it around, but not much. 

The misconception I encounter much more frequently about Wiccan men is the exact opposite:  tht the only reason a man would be involved with Wicca is to get nekkid with a bunch of women.
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« Reply #8: October 15, 2007, 01:35:00 pm »

And perhaps it is, as Sunflower says, a more common misconception among younger folks.  Being old and decrepit I wouldn't know about that. 

I had been mulling over a few of the replies and wondered if maybe it is just because a large portion of younger generations just think religion in general is corny and want little to do with it beyond being dragged to church on a few important holidays (if that).  So anyone actively seeking spirituality would then be considered lame or "gay" in their eyes.

Also, as was mentioned, I certainly don't consider the Horned God of Wicca to be gay, however there are deities that may sometimes seen as bisexual depending on what source you believe, for instance the term "pansexual" was coined to indicate a form of bisexuality, and for whatever reason the enigmatic Green Man seems to have become a bit of a poster boy for gay pagans (I found out that there is a book entitled The Path Of The Green Man: Gay Men, Wicca, and Living a Magical Life and Wikipedia states there is a "Green Man" gay Wiccan tradition)
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« Reply #9: October 15, 2007, 04:50:22 pm »

Wow, good article!


All these things are part of the Wicca Gerald Gardner created. They have been a part since long before I was born. And here are people who have no clue of that. They call themselves Wiccan, but look upon some of the most basic concepts of Wicca as sick and perverted.

It seems to be an ingrained trait within westerners, (people of northern European ancestry in particular) to say out with the old and in with the new. Even in religion, which I see as something that is supposed to change us....yet westerners want to change religion.

There is a similar thing that goes on in some circles in Orthodox Christianity in America. Partly due to the influx of protestant converts, (as I am) who never really stop thinking in a western, critical mindset. Now there is nothing wrong with thinking like a westerner, it's good, and fine, and I'm proud I do. It's part of who I am....I'm not greek, nor egyptian or anything else, I love those cultures, but will never think in those terms. And that's fine. What becomes problematic is when westerners try to impose their mindsets on a religion that simply isn't designed for those concepts. There is something to be said for just accepting the Mystery as it is, and leaving it at that. Westerners have a big problem with this.

Westerners also have a hard time accepting the concept that people centuries ago might have understood things better than we do. And so there are some parishes in the U.S. with large convert congregations who "protestantize" their churches in one form or another...(in particular they get rid of things that might offend protestants, like making sure they don't have too many icons, or too many candles) they call it "Americanizing" it because, as they say, some parts of the spirituality just don't translate to Americans well...Eastern Christian mysticism is just too much for an American to grasp. I say that is the very point....it's Christian mysticism and isn't supposed to be grasped, or else they'll be nothing mystical about it.


Quote
Joseph Campbell once said that the problem with Christianity is that it takes it's myths too literal. In doing so the symbolic message contained in those myths is lost to many. In the case of Wicca we have discarded the myth altogether, and with it the core of what it is all about.

I can understand that argument. But I think the "de-mything" of faith is a side effect of our modern world more than anything. For example, Orthodox use icons. And there are all sorts of symbolic and theological reasons behind it....however some  simply say the early Christians used icons just so the illiterate could learn the faith. While this is certainly true,  even if that was the original reason behind it, and nothing more....since the first frescoes were painted in Christian meeting places a great wealth of theology has been woven around them for at least the last 1,500 years. There needs to be room for both the history as well as the theology, because theology is part of the history. You can't divorce one from the other, because they developed side by side.

I know almost nothing about Wicca, but it sounds similar.....the myth of it's history may have been invented by a man, but that doesn't mean the rituals are wrong or don't have some truth in them.

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The extremes of life, the pain and joy, celebrated and cherished in Wicca have been converted to more acceptable and palatable middle of the road point of view.

Which is why I mentioned the "Americanizing" of Orthodoxy thing. The line of thinking is this:

Icons, clouds of incense, hundreds of candles aren't acceptable to non Orthodox American Christians, so lets tone it down.....make it more acceptable. Our chanting is just "too eastern" or to "outdated" so lets use western music, and leave the chanting to those in the monastery or in Greece....

The problem becomes when that logic invades every aspect of the faith....we must change this in order to make that group happy.

Of course as you said, change is fine. Change can be good. And ultra traditionalist fundamentalism can be a dangerous thing (particularly in Christianity)....the problem is where does one draw the line? It's ok to have diversity, and differing opinions, that's great....but when for example texts or prayers are being deliberately mistranslated so as not to offend a group who disagrees with said theology, then there is a problem. Or when a religion of joy, passion, and power is turned into a religion of submission, false humility, and sadness....it stabs at the very heart of that faith, all for the sake of "fitting in"......



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I think change can be a good thing. But change something too much and it is no longer the same thing.

Exactly! That reminds me of something my first priest and spiritual mentor said....he compared Orthodoxy to a sculpture, and the movement for change the act of chipping away at the sculpture with a chisel. The problem is, if you chip away at it long enough, the statue will eventually be changed beyond recognition. And that's the danger....losing what makes a religion THAT religion isn't worth trying to make right winged fundamentalists not thing we're idol worshippers. Because who cares...do we care what God (or Gods) thinks, or what man thinks?

Hope this makes sense, as I know I'm talking about issues specific to my faith, but I tried to make them relevant to the topic at hand!



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« Reply #10: October 15, 2007, 05:35:26 pm »

(in particular they get rid of things that might offend protestants, like making sure they don't have too many icons, or too many candles) they call it "Americanizing" it because, as they say, some parts of the spirituality just don't translate to Americans well...Eastern Christian mysticism is just too much for an American to grasp.

Getting rid of/cutting back on icons and candles? However very weird.

However, you see a lot of this type of stuff with Pagans as well. Many Pagans will drop things from their practice to help avoid offending (usually Protestant) Fundies. The sad thing is most of the Fundis are still offended, after all, they think we are most Christians are going to hell because they don't believe just exactly like they do, so nothing a Pagan can do except to convert to their brand of Fundie Christianity is really going to make them more acceptable in their eyes.... So why bother?
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« Reply #11: October 15, 2007, 10:49:56 pm »

I had been mulling over a few of the replies and wondered if maybe it is just because a large portion of younger generations just think religion in general is corny and want little to do with it beyond being dragged to church on a few important holidays (if that).  So anyone actively seeking spirituality would then be considered lame or "gay" in their eyes.
Could be - but that's definitely nothing new; teens and twentysomethings have been thinking "corny" about what older generations do for a long, long time.  If that's the meaning of "gay" that's being applied here, it suggests that Paganism has become more mainstream than I realized; it used to be that one of the great appeal factors of Paganism among the young was that it was a way to approach spirituality that wasn't what the squares did.

You did originally specify Pagan males being assumed to be gay, which implies the "homosexual" sense of the word, so it seems more likely to me that it's related to Pagan religions' acceptance of homosexuality.  Because most Pagan religions don't condemn it, Pagandom has an unusually high number of visible homosexual/bisexual adherents (male and female).  For some people, "religion(s) that accept homosexuality" equates to "religion of homosexuals" (perhaps because they can't imagine how a religion that attracts gay men could possibly appeal to straight ones?).

Or, less problematically, it could simply be that so many of the (male) Pagans they've known were gay or bi, so they're not conscious of the straight ones.

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Also, as was mentioned, I certainly don't consider the Horned God of Wicca to be gay, however there are deities that may sometimes seen as bisexual depending on what source you believe, for instance the term "pansexual" was coined to indicate a form of bisexuality
Which has nothing at all to do with Pan the deity; it's a prefix meaning "all".  (Said deity's name has been postulated - almost certainly incorrectly, I understand - to also derive from "all", thus leading to his high profile in the last couple of centuries... but that's as close of a connection as can be drawn between Pan and pansexuality.)

That said, there are indeed deities that pretty definitely challenge the norms about sexuality and gender, yes.

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« Reply #12: October 16, 2007, 04:14:09 pm »

Getting rid of/cutting back on icons and candles? However very weird.

It is indeed! It's not widespread, I know I've never been in a church that has done that,  but I know there are a few of them that exist. The thing is it's a uniquely "American thing" as I've corresponded with a few Orthodox people around the world and this kind of thing only happens in the U.S. Even in totally English speaking countries such as Australia, they can't imagine doing something like that just to make someone else happy. They say the same thing, it's just plain weird.

Quote
However, you see a lot of this type of stuff with Pagans as well. Many Pagans will drop things from their practice to help avoid offending (usually Protestant) Fundies. The sad thing is most of the Fundis are still offended, after all, they think we are most Christians are going to hell because they don't believe just exactly like they do, so nothing a Pagan can do except to convert to their brand of Fundie Christianity is really going to make them more acceptable in their eyes.... So why bother?

Exactly!!! I couldn't have said it better myself.
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« Reply #13: October 16, 2007, 10:14:34 pm »

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone in the general public who thinks "Wicca = gay" (although I have encountered a few ultra-Feminist Wiccans who believe that all Wiccans really should all be female, lesbian, and male-haters). This "Wicca = gay" thing must be something fairly new or fairly regional.

Makes me crazy. Ultra feminist female lesbian male haters are called Dianic witches (or at least they used to be).

And it is to laugh, Gerald really was rather homophobic....... really.

Teri

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« Reply #14: October 16, 2007, 10:27:03 pm »



I don't fit in with the strict British Traditionalists who accept every word of Gardner as holy write, and I don't want to fit in with the fluff bunnies.

Read the Full Article
 

I pulled this quote from the text of the orginal article. I just wanted to comment to Tony M that while I agree very much with most of what he said, I can't really NOT comment on the holy writ line.

I am a strict British Traditionalist, but I do not accept every word of Gardner as holy writ. Even though we bare our practice down to the core as much as possible, we believe in the spirit of the craft, as much as the tradition. My coven is right-moderate in the Gardnerian family, and honestly, very few covens of my knowledge are hard core fundamentalist.

Teri
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