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Author Topic: Rede and Fluff  (Read 46522 times)
Mandi
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« Reply #15: October 17, 2007, 07:37:52 pm »

I do think that this can happen, whether or not there are witnesses. If I broke the oath I took, I would feel the guilt, the shame of knowing I'd done so. And there were not witnesses to said oath.

but that's you.   Wink  There are quite a few people out there who if they were just speaking the words, would dismiss them just as easily.  Especially those who already took it lightly to begin with.  It was years before I was fully aware of what I meant, and by that point I was no longer examining my spirituality from the point of Wiccanesque shapes.  If someone without an understanding what Wicca is, (newness, lack of knowledge of other options) and what it means to be a Wiccan took an oath to uphold something they didn't entirely understand/ believe in, then it could be pretty conveniently overturned in the name of lack of understanding.

"fluffy" (lightly taken) oaths can make the oath look bad, not just the oath maker.
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Dania
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« Reply #16: October 17, 2007, 09:04:58 pm »

If someone without an understanding what Wicca is, (newness, lack of knowledge of other options) and what it means to be a Wiccan took an oath to uphold something they didn't entirely understand/ believe in, then it could be pretty conveniently overturned in the name of lack of understanding.

True, but if that were the case, I don't think the person would particularly care if there were witnesses or not.

"fluffy" (lightly taken) oaths can make the oath look bad, not just the oath maker.

Exactly!!
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« Reply #17: October 17, 2007, 09:47:31 pm »

True, but if that were the case, I don't think the person would particularly care if there were witnesses or not.


There is a certain type of person that cares very much about witnesses.  They will never break a promise they made in front of others, but a promise that only the promisee witnessed, or that was made to/for themselves is a different story.

In some cases it is a cultural thing.  A dishonour that nobody knows about doesn't count, and lies that are never discovered are not lies.

In some, this can lead to extreme measures to hide dishonour, and equally extreme determination to keep promises that people know about.

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« Reply #18: October 17, 2007, 10:15:33 pm »

There is a certain type of person that cares very much about witnesses.  They will never break a promise they made in front of others, but a promise that only the promisee witnessed, or that was made to/for themselves is a different story.

In some cases it is a cultural thing.  A dishonour that nobody knows about doesn't count, and lies that are never discovered are not lies.

In some, this can lead to extreme measures to hide dishonour, and equally extreme determination to keep promises that people know about.

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I found an example of this in the 10-century medieval Byzantine epic poem, Digenis Akritas. Basil the half-breed ('digenis') border lord ('akritas') had a love affair with Maximo the warrior bandit queen. She threatened to reveal the affair to Basil's wife, and he murdered her in response...presumably to preserve his 'honor'.

I was shocked at how this enormously popular cultural hero was described as murdering a woman he obviously cared for, but it's all about context. The attitudes expressed therein were a reflection of gender relations among the peasants and warrior aristocracy of Greek-speaking Eastern Anatolia, circa 10th century.
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« Reply #19: October 18, 2007, 01:08:20 am »

And there were not witnesses to said oath.
Um, wouldn't that be, no corporeal witnesses?

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« Reply #20: October 18, 2007, 01:19:20 am »

There is a certain type of person that cares very much about witnesses.  They will never break a promise they made in front of others, but a promise that only the promisee witnessed, or that was made to/for themselves is a different story.

In some cases it is a cultural thing.  A dishonour that nobody knows about doesn't count, and lies that are never discovered are not lies.

In some, this can lead to extreme measures to hide dishonour, and equally extreme determination to keep promises that people know about.

I work with someone like that.  so long as she didn't sign the paper saying she would work for you, you couldn't believe that she would.   But by all the gods, if the paper were signed, she would work.
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« Reply #21: October 18, 2007, 02:56:32 pm »

Um, wouldn't that be, no corporeal witnesses?

Well, right, but I was trying to stay out of bat-shit territory here. Grin

Honestly, it slipped my mind, as whoever I was responding to (I can't recall who it was now) seemed to imply that only corporeal witnesses count.

There is a certain type of person that cares very much about witnesses.  They will never break a promise they made in front of others, but a promise that only the promisee witnessed, or that was made to/for themselves is a different story.

I know some people are like this, but I don't think it's right. Wink
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« Reply #22: November 03, 2007, 03:45:18 am »

Wow! It didnt take long to find the "fluffy bunny" quote!!

I am Wiccan, not because I know no better but because its the path I chose! I follow the Rede as far as my magic is concerned and I try to live my life is a positive way. I am a 46 year old tattooed, pierced biker and would never call myself or my magic "fluffy"! I just dont use it in a negative way.

I struggle sometimes to understand to derogatory use of the word "Wicca". I personally think we all follow the same basic path, make merry on the same days, raise a glass to the same Goddess. So I choose to follow the Rede as I make my magic.............that makes my work fluffy and less effective!?Huh
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« Reply #23: November 03, 2007, 06:49:01 am »

I struggle sometimes to understand to derogatory use of the word "Wicca". I personally think we all follow the same basic path, make merry on the same days, raise a glass to the same Goddess. So I choose to follow the Rede as I make my magic.............that makes my work fluffy and less effective!?Huh

No one, to the best of my recollection, said anything about fluffy being less effective.  (For me its impossible to believe any magic is less effective than any other - I don't believe in any of it).  I haven't seen Wicca used as a derogatory term.  However, quite a few people do get annoyed when (as has happened in the past, quite a lot of times) they are told that they believe X.

For example, you say that you think that everyone follows the same basic path.  Some people would take offense at being slotted into the same pigeonhole, without concern for the very real differences that do exist in different paths/ religions.  A lot of the membership at the Cauldron are also hard polytheists.  They don't believe that all the gods/ goddesses etc are the same, so I expect many will also take issue with the claim that everyone raises a glass to the same goddess.

Whatever you may think about other peoples paths being similar to your own, other people have their own opinion on the matter, and will inevitably express it.
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« Reply #24: November 03, 2007, 08:12:08 am »

I am Wiccan, not because I know no better but because its the path I chose! I follow the Rede as far as my magic is concerned and I try to live my life is a positive way.

The Wiccan Rede is supposed to apply to every aspect of a Wiccan's life -- not just to doing magic.

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I personally think we all follow the same basic path, make merry on the same days, raise a glass to the same Goddess.

This statement simply is NOT true. There are many Pagan religions that have no more in common with the religion of Wicca (or Neo-Wicca) than they do with Christianity or Jainism. They have vastly different beliefs than Wicca, different deities, different holidays, different moral strictures, different ways of worship, etc. My religion, Hellenic Paganism, has very little in common with Wicca that it does not also have in common with just about every other religion on the planet. The differences between Hellenic Paganism and Wicca are far greater than the Wiccan Rede.

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So I choose to follow the Rede as I make my magic.............that makes my work fluffy and less effective!?Huh

Following the Wiccan Rede does not necessarily make one fluffy or less effective.
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« Reply #25: November 03, 2007, 09:32:14 am »



You may also find this thread helpful:

http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=661.0

It discusses some of the difficulties that come about when someone tries to define Paganism.  Given that you have suggested that all Pagan paths are similar, I feel that this discussion may be relevant.
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Mandi
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« Reply #26: November 03, 2007, 09:38:01 am »

Wow! It didnt take long to find the "fluffy bunny" quote!!

I am Wiccan, not because I know no better but because its the path I chose! I follow the Rede as far as my magic is concerned and I try to live my life is a positive way. I am a 46 year old tattooed, pierced biker and would never call myself or my magic "fluffy"! I just dont use it in a negative way.

I struggle sometimes to understand to derogatory use of the word "Wicca". I personally think we all follow the same basic path, make merry on the same days, raise a glass to the same Goddess. So I choose to follow the Rede as I make my magic.............that makes my work fluffy and less effective!?Huh

In my opinion the 'derogatory use' comes of people who are not Wiccan titling themselves as such.

If I'm buying beer, and I get home and open it and come to find out it's soda, or is actually malt liquor then I'm going to be annoyed, probably take it back, most likely complain.

Beer has a set of criteria that make it beer.  While some may use the word loosely to refer to all manner of barley wine and other 'beer like' items, those items in truth are not beer.

If someone happened to say, well it's all about the same color, and it's fizzy... then I'm probably not going to take their opinion regarding beer to be very well researched.  It most definitely is NOT all the same.
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
Dania
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« Reply #27: November 03, 2007, 10:21:31 am »

I am Wiccan, not because I know no better but because its the path I chose! I follow the Rede as far as my magic is concerned and I try to live my life is a positive way.

And this is fine! It's your personal choice on how you want to live your life, and practice your magic. So long as you don't a) try to tell everyone else what they believe, or should believe or b) try to tell others who don't believe as you do that they are wrong because their actions do not agree with your personal beliefs you really won't have any problems.

It's not rede followers that we object to, for the most part. (In fact, I *adore* the Wiccan Rede in it's original, complete interpretation "An it harm none, do what thou wilt". It's the altered versions that I don't like "Do what thou wilt, yet harm none." or worse simply "harm none".) It's when people who DO follow the Rede try to tell us that  we should be following it too or else we're bad people (or worse, "Karma's gonna get you!!!"). I am not Wiccan. I do not follow the Rede. Anyone who IS Wiccan would, I expect.

I struggle sometimes to understand to derogatory use of the word "Wicca".

I really think this comes from all of the stuff found in those 101 books. People who claim to be Wiccan, or think that they are Wiccan, but only understand half of the religion and the understanding they have is incorrect. The "Fundy Wiccans" (take a Fundy Christian and replace "hell" and "fire and brimstone" with Karma and "threefold law" and you have a Fundy Wiccan) who give Wicca a bad name (just as "Fundy Christians" give Christianity a bad name.)

I personally think we all follow the same basic path, make merry on the same days, raise a glass to the same Goddess.

Certainly not. Some believe that "all paths lead to the same end" or something of that nature...but my path is certainly NOT Wiccan. I do celebrate some of the same Holidays. I certainly don't worship the same Goddess as I am a hard polytheist...I do not believe that "all gods are one God" and I work with several different gods and goddesses within my own practice.

So I choose to follow the Rede as I make my magic.............that makes my work fluffy and less effective!?

Nope...not at all. Not in and of itself, at any rate. Wink And even if you ARE what I would consider "fluffy" I don't think this is necessarily a *bad* thing if it works for you and if you don't try to shove it down my throat. Smiley I believe that if it is working for you (as it must be or sooner or later you would stop doing it) than it is not ineffective, either. It wouldn't work for ME but my goals, I'm sure, are different from your goals, my beliefs are different from your beliefs, and I have my own system that does work for me.
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« Reply #28: November 03, 2007, 11:01:28 am »

This statement simply is NOT true. There are many Pagan religions that have no more in common with the religion of Wicca (or Neo-Wicca) than they do with Christianity or Jainism.

Oh very much not true.
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« Reply #29: November 06, 2007, 05:44:00 pm »

The Wiccan Rede is supposed to apply to every aspect of a Wiccan's life -- not just to doing magic.

Which, when one is applying it the "non-silly" way, makes sense. If you follow the Rede (and I do), then it doesn't make much sense to be utterly scrupulous about your magic being postive, but "mundanely" you litter, eat junk foods all the time, and are generally a miserable SOB towards your family and loved ones.

Mundane actions can cause harm too, and I think it's easier to do so, because you're probably not thinking about it. In magical space, folks will rehearse spells over and over to try to keep any taint of negativity out of them, but might not think twice about throwing a soda cup out of the car.

But more to the point, if you aren't applying your religious ethics towards your "mundane" life, whatever that code might be, then to me you aren't really living a moral life.

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