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Author Topic: Rede and Fluff  (Read 46523 times)
Mofixana
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« Reply #150: January 26, 2009, 04:22:13 am »

  I am new to eCauldron, so first hello!

  I want to start off by saying this so far is one of the more interesting articles I have read.  I began studying over 10 years ago under an amazing priestess.  The very first thing she taught me was the Rede.  She felt it important for a newbie and someone still, then, in the 'broom closet' that I understand the basic thought behind the craft.  She made sure I knew the Rede was a guideline, especially for someone so green. 
   I am a pagan that leans more to Wicca but being a member of an eclectic coven I have been exposed to numerous ways of life and worship.  I still use the Rede as a generic path.  It reminds me that in life there are things you should shy away from like burning Elder.  I am not saying I feel I would *gasp* never do such a thing because, hey, I just might.  But more the less, I know there is something out there that will work just as well as Elder without me having to step on toes.  It doesn't bother me at all.  Also the Rede reminds me that karma is a brat and don't send anything out you don't want back.  Sometimes I need to be reminded.  And also, I feel it is important that we harm none.  It's a biggie in my book.
   I never thought of it as positive or negative, like everything else, it is a balance.  I never saw it as fluffy either.  Those who only do "fluffly" have most likely, in my eyes, never took the Rede line by line and really examined what it means to them personally.
   I hope I haven't offended anyone, and if so I promise that wasn't my intent. 
   Blessed Be, Mo.
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Fagan_the_Pagan
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« Reply #151: January 26, 2009, 09:27:09 am »

    I never thought of it as positive or negative, like everything else, it is a balance. 
Speaking to the idea of balance, perhaps that is the important part.  As has been mentioned, it is foolish to think you can live at all without at least indirectly causing harm to SOMETHING, but for a religion that holds balance & nature as paramount (well, to some), perhaps we should look to the natural models and see how the animals around us develop an equilibrium.  Do we scold the the hawk for killing a mouse for it's food?  Of course not, it is the natural way.  Yes, a mouse is dead, but as part of a greater cycle that upholds the balance of nature.  So in a larger sense, the hawk hasn't done true harm because it's a part of the process.  What we eat is not an issue, and all those tiny, insignificant "harms" are not the issue, it's keeping within the balance.  As humans, we have a distressing tendency to upset the balance of . . . well, just about everything.  The Rede, then, is, as has been said before, a bit of moral advice that strives to help us stay within balance by trying to prevent any UNNECESSARY harm.  Sometimes you still have to hurt to help.  And maybe because it makes  better moral advice than the easily misinterpreted "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Wink
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« Reply #152: January 26, 2009, 10:29:25 am »

And maybe because it makes  better moral advice than the easily misinterpreted "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Wink

it's misinterpreted, I think, b/c people don't remember or don't understand that the other part of that is "Love is the Law. Love under Will." If your intention magically is coming from Love, anything that may hurt others will not be actual harm (although it may seem harmful, at first, to some)
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #153: January 26, 2009, 03:09:40 pm »

it's misinterpreted, I think, b/c people don't remember or don't understand that the other part of that is "Love is the Law. Love under Will." If your intention magically is coming from Love, anything that may hurt others will not be actual harm (although it may seem harmful, at first, to some)

Wow, what a fabulous way of absolving yourself of all responsibility for your actions.  "My intentions (so I claim) were pure, therefore any harm you suffered was imaginary.  It's YOUR fault for not realizing how LOVING I am, and so the hurt is ALL in your head."  In some ways, love is an even more dangerous force than hate, because it leads to exactly that kind of self-justifying rhetoric.
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« Reply #154: January 26, 2009, 03:29:31 pm »

"My intentions (so I claim) were pure, therefore any harm you suffered was imaginary.  It's YOUR fault for not realizing how LOVING I am, and so the hurt is ALL in your head." 

I've seen that exact reasoning given to deny gays the right to marry.

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« Reply #155: January 26, 2009, 03:35:56 pm »

I've seen that exact reasoning given to deny gays the right to marry.



That exact reasoning has been used to justify an ENORMOUS number of horrors throughout human history.  There's ample evidence to suggest that there were many, many people who genuinely believed that, say, the enslavement of Africans, the forced conversions of native peoples, the beating of children, locking women into second-class status, etc., etc., etc., was "for their own good" -- and therefore, that doing so was an act of love.  After all, we're rescuing Africans from savagery and exposing them to Christianity!  And so on.  It's also a brilliant way of silencing victims -- because hey, if their victimizer "meant well," there's no harm done!  Ugh.
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« Reply #156: January 26, 2009, 03:51:38 pm »

That exact reasoning has been used to justify an ENORMOUS number of horrors throughout human history.  There's ample evidence to suggest that there were many, many people who genuinely believed that, say, the enslavement of Africans, the forced conversions of native peoples, the beating of children, locking women into second-class status, etc., etc., etc., was "for their own good" -- and therefore, that doing so was an act of love.  After all, we're rescuing Africans from savagery and exposing them to Christianity!  And so on.  It's also a brilliant way of silencing victims -- because hey, if their victimizer "meant well," there's no harm done!  Ugh.

My goodness.
If my intention is Love, or put another way, the highest good, there is no way any of that crap can happen. Maybe we have different understandings of how divine love is expressed, but to me, anything that is truly harmful, ie takes away another person's freedom or rights, is clearly not love, no matter how good you think your intention is. That is merely maya and ego, and ime, lots of people tend to mistake for love. I try not to make that kind of mistake, magically at least, bc I have personally experienced the consequences. I do alot of self-reflection and double and triple checking with non-judgmental and uninvolved sources before I do any spellwork that might reflect that.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
rose
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« Reply #157: January 26, 2009, 04:07:32 pm »

Wow, what a fabulous way of absolving yourself of all responsibility for your actions.  "My intentions (so I claim) were pure, therefore any harm you suffered was imaginary.  It's YOUR fault for not realizing how LOVING I am, and so the hurt is ALL in your head."  In some ways, love is an even more dangerous force than hate, because it leads to exactly that kind of self-justifying rhetoric.

Divine love never leads to any self-justifying hate bc that is just plain not it's nature. Lots of other kinds of love do, of course, lead to all kinds of nonsense and suffering, but I have at this point in my life pretty much lost interest in that kind of thing.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
Fagan_the_Pagan
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« Reply #158: January 26, 2009, 04:47:45 pm »

Wow, what a fabulous way of absolving yourself of all responsibility for your actions.  "My intentions (so I claim) were pure, therefore any harm you suffered was imaginary.  It's YOUR fault for not realizing how LOVING I am, and so the hurt is ALL in your head."  In some ways, love is an even more dangerous force than hate, because it leads to exactly that kind of self-justifying rhetoric.
I think you may be blowing things a little out of proportion.  While some may manipulate the intended meaning to justify horrible things, I seriously doubt that was rose's intent.  I think what she MEANT was talking about how sometime "Tough Love" can be a truer love than gentle, frilly love.  I think she's talking about is the kind of love that might hurt RIGHT NOW, but in the end was for the best.  Like telling someone the uncomfortable truth, or like surgery, where you have to cut someone open so you can put them back together again.  I also think that the "Do what thou wilt" and "Love is the law" statements are presuming that one's intentions and feelings of love are HONEST and GENUINE and not a paternalistic hatred masquerading as Love.
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« Reply #159: January 26, 2009, 05:13:49 pm »

Maybe we have different understandings of how divine love is expressed, but to me, anything that is truly harmful, ie takes away another person's freedom or rights, is clearly not love, no matter how good you think your intention is.

This guy: http://www.statenews.com/index.php/article/2008/11/love_drives_same-sex_marriage_fight truly believes he has 'divine love' for gays. 
Quoting from his article: 
"I’m against gay marriage not because I want to restrict the rights of homosexuals, but because I care about them so much that I just can’t advocate that kind of behavior."


So who is the love police to decide whether or not one's love is true and divine, and therefore, not harmful?
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« Reply #160: January 26, 2009, 05:19:38 pm »

   I never thought of it as positive or negative, like everything else, it is a balance.  I never saw it as fluffy either.  Those who only do "fluffly" have most likely, in my eyes, never took the Rede line by line and really examined what it means to them personally.
True, most likely they haven't - but neither have a great many people who aren't fluffy.  You're clearly referring either to the poem "The Rede of the Wiccae" or to one of the many Rede-poems derived from it, which is/are not core, and may not even be considered supplementary material, in many forms of (eight-word) Rede-following religious Witchcraft.  (I've used that awkward phrase instead of just saying "Wicca" for a number of reasons, but the most significant is that the original "The Rede of the Wiccae" comes from a Witchcraft tradition that very firmly states that it's not Wicca.)

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« Reply #161: January 26, 2009, 05:54:47 pm »

My goodness.
If my intention is Love, or put another way, the highest good, there is no way any of that crap can happen. Maybe we have different understandings of how divine love is expressed, but to me, anything that is truly harmful, ie takes away another person's freedom or rights, is clearly not love, no matter how good you think your intention is.

I think at least part of the problem is that you meant "divine love" when you were said "Love."  (And it also assumes that the divine is some type of all-good entity than cannot err in its judgment or even something done out of divine love could go horribly wrong.)

Side Note: I've never really thought Crowley was talking about Divine Love as I can't imagine Divine Love under human will, but that's another issue completely.
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« Reply #162: January 26, 2009, 06:41:53 pm »

Divine love never leads to any self-justifying hate bc that is just plain not it's nature. Lots of other kinds of love do, of course, lead to all kinds of nonsense and suffering, but I have at this point in my life pretty much lost interest in that kind of thing.

So... you can control all possible outcomes?  Which includes others' responses and interpretations?  In your original post, you stated, "If your intention magically is coming from Love, anything that may hurt others will not be actual harm (although it may seem harmful, at first, to some)."  (Emphasis mine.)  Which is a fantastic way of completely denying others' perceptions, by claiming that your "intention* overrides everything, including others' perceptions of harm -- and therefore, no harm can ever be done. 

Jenett has a fantastic example of how the noblest and most loving intentions can go very wrong:  sending healing energy to someone with a broken bone that hasn't been set yet, or to someone with a disease like lupus, which is an overactive immune system.  In both those cases, the best, noblest, and most loving of intentions -- healing the sick -- can cause great damage, by causing a bone to heal wrong, or causing a lupus flare-up.  But if intention is all, then that *by definition* wouldn't happen -- even though Jenett has argued that it can and has.  And the way you phrased things, you implied that, in fact, intention *was* everything, and that others' perceptions of harm are therefore all wrong.  Can you see the problem here?       
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« Reply #163: January 26, 2009, 07:01:41 pm »

This guy: http://www.statenews.com/index.php/article/2008/11/love_drives_same-sex_marriage_fight truly believes he has 'divine love' for gays. 
Quoting from his article: 
"I’m against gay marriage not because I want to restrict the rights of homosexuals, but because I care about them so much that I just can’t advocate that kind of behavior."


So who is the love police to decide whether or not one's love is true and divine, and therefore, not harmful?

see, that's where the ego and maya come into play, b/c what he is saying is a contradiction in terms. He cares about them so much that he feels obligated tell other people who it is ok for them to love or not love, even though they are not impinging on anyone else's basic human rights by doing so? Because he cherishes a belief (that is not even supported by scripture, iirc) that being gay is a sin? How is that caring? How can a loving God condone that? (and I have heard quite a few of my gay christian friends refute this guy and his ilk's specious arguments quite handily, and I know many here can as well, so I won't go off on that sidetrack). What he is talking about is not love. That's actually fear-of difference, of Other. And it's not that hard for human beings to mistake fear for love, I'm afraid.

Here is the test I use; does what I perceive to be divine love take away or impede someone else's right to be who they are as a human being?  Those rights being; alive, free to make their own choices, and not taking away anyone else's basic human rights. If the answer is yes, that is my ego, and nothing else. Even if lots of other people are on the same ego trip with me, and we have rallies and whatever, it's just an ego trip.

Divine love might take away privileges, but never rights. But of course lots of people are confused about which is which.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
rose
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« Reply #164: January 26, 2009, 07:12:47 pm »

So... you can control all possible outcomes?  Which includes others' responses and interpretations?  In your original post, you stated, "If your intention magically is coming from Love, anything that may hurt others will not be actual harm (although it may seem harmful, at first, to some)."  (Emphasis mine.)  Which is a fantastic way of completely denying others' perceptions, by claiming that your "intention* overrides everything, including others' perceptions of harm -- and therefore, no harm can ever be done. 

Jenett has a fantastic example of how the noblest and most loving intentions can go very wrong:  sending healing energy to someone with a broken bone that hasn't been set yet, or to someone with a disease like lupus, which is an overactive immune system.  In both those cases, the best, noblest, and most loving of intentions -- healing the sick -- can cause great damage, by causing a bone to heal wrong, or causing a lupus flare-up.  But if intention is all, then that *by definition* wouldn't happen -- even though Jenett has argued that it can and has.  And the way you phrased things, you implied that, in fact, intention *was* everything, and that others' perceptions of harm are therefore all wrong.  Can you see the problem here?       


I see how you read it that way, ok. But I hope  I've made clear what I was trying to say in my other posts. I agree with Randall that the problem is with using the word Love (and isn't *that always the way with love?).

I never send healing energy that hasn't been specifically requested b/c yes, it can certainly do harm. Christians who pray for homosexuals to change into heterosexuals are in fact sending harm into the universe, imo.

My point was that "harm" may mean that the person trying to do damage to my property or my family will be prevented, to the trespassers detriment, or even that the spellwork I do, say for love or prosperity or whatever, may mean that I lose a relationship I was seeking to save, or don't get a job I wanted, b/c that is to my highest good. And yes, I can tell when it's to my highest good when I get another better job, or relationship.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/

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