Universal Pagan Etiquette?

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[Zerynthia]

My response to this whole thing is "where did they learn their manners?"  And that applies to everything from the lack of warning to the mess left behind.  I didn't raise any children to behave like that.....

This is precisely why I feel so weird about discussing this with them. For me to explain my issues/problems would be to criticize their upbringing, at least indirectly.

Besides being angry and outraged at how violated and disrespected I feel, I feel sad. I really like these people - how can people who are normally so sensitive, creative, funny, intelligent and warm be so, so...barbaric and rude? It just doesn't compute. I've discussed some personal problems with the HPS on one occasion, and she really had brilliant insight and helpful advice. How can someone so perceptive and to-the-point be so stupid about how to treat people's homes, belongings and ensuring her coven and its guests do the same? *sigh*

I'm deeply hurt by this whole thing. I've been a solitary for years for precisely this reason. I thought I would venture out again and give people the benefit of the doubt. Why can't someone surprise me? just once? Instead of just being predictably ugly...

[sailor_tech]

(snip)
Background:
There is a local Wiccan group I've been getting to know and hanging out with since Litha. I met the HP and HPS at a cafe (neutral territory) to determine that I'm not a danger or potential embarassment to them. After our initial meeting, I was invited to a semi-public Litha ritual that was held by 3-4 local circles that come together for the Sabbats. I have since attended one standing lunch group meeting, one pagan field trip to the Rosicrucian museum and one class/meeting/ritual at the HP's apartment. So, I would say that I am acquainted with a few members of the group, but I most certainly do not know them well.

The HP and HPS both are apartment dwellers. Until recently, all classes/rituals were held at the HP's apartment. However, complaints from the neighbors about the noise and the threats of eviction have been an obstacle to our continued meetings in his home/the covenstead. The HPS's apartment is too crammed full of stuff for one person to comfortably sit, let alone a group. Also, the HPS does not own a car, nor does she drive - so, everything she does is either by way of walking, public transport or carpool with others attending the same event.

The coven maintains a Yahoo! group which of course supplies us with a steady stream of calendar reminders and summaries of recent threads. Unfortunately, the Yahoo! digests have been problematic lately, intermittently sending out the digests. A call for volunteers was issued late last Wednesday for anyone who could hold the class and ritual at their home. I said that I might be able to offer my home. When I saw no response the following day, I figured I had once again been blown off. You see, this isn't the first time I've offered up my home. When a similar plea for volunteers went out some one or two months ago, no one even commented.

When I figured I had been blown off again, I shrugged it off and began troubleshooting some of my own personal crises (including the fact that I was starting a new job in a city that is 70 miles from my home the following week). I had totally forgotten about the whole thing. I was so busy with errands and other stuff, that I didn't even turn on my computer Friday night or Saturday morning.

About 2pm on Saturday afternoon, I get a frantic phone call from the HPS. She needs my address and directions because, surprise! they took me up on my offer. This is T-minus three hours until meeting time. I tell her I have to clear it with my partner first. After a few frantic phone calls and text messages, I finally get my sweetheart on the phone long enough to ask if having a house full of people would be a problem. When I got the all clear, I called the HPS back, gave my information and proceeded to turn on the computer and post all my information on the Yahoo! group.


So, now what do you think?

I think you were used and abused.

There is no way your house should have been chosen on such short notice. Nor without a direct confirmation of choosing your place.

I'll have snipped most of the originial, but starting from the bottom.

The people who moved stuff for the ritual should have moved it back. That's sort of comes with the job of having muscles in the group. If you get grabbed to move it out of the way initially, you should expect to move it back.

You didn't say how long the overall event was, but 15 minutes of chat afterwards seems short. Thinking back at various events of more than a couple of people, we seemed to start the meal after the ritual; and then as people started on coffee everybody started with the clean up. yeah, the house owner was the busiest, but lots of that was bossing and getting stuff. You know, hey Joe take this trash bag out, while she put a new one in. Everybody helped clear plates.

Dishes:  You or your partner are going to be stuck putting the dishes in the dishwasher most times.  BUT, they others should have been asking for where to scrap food off of plates and more trashbags for the other stuff.  Leaving the table covered in trash in inexcusable. Dirty (but scrapped) dishes, awaiting your putting them in the dishwasher, that I can understand.

It also sounds like they ritual people were very disorganized. I wonder what would have happened if you didn't have a copy of 777?  or parchment in the house?

Part of the planning process should have been to make sure you actually had enough cups, silverware, etc. At least you know to have stuff laid out or bought disposables.

How long has this horde been around?  Does the HP (or his building) provide plates, silverware and disposable napkins, etc?  Or does he?  Or is somebody supposed to bring stuff? 

Also wonder how they would have handled it if you had said no at 3PM since it might have taken an hour to contact your partner.

Really, this sounds like something that should have been worked out at least a month in advance. The HPs going to the Mens Mysteries doesn't sound like a short notice emergency.  Heck, it doesn't sound like an emergency at all. He had a choice, his regular group or the special event.

[Jenett]

I believe that the HP is self sufficient. He has a day job, an apartment and a car that he pays for out of the money he earns.

There's a reason I said 'struggling with things' - stuff getting to the point of threats of eviction with one's neighbors is a sign that something isn't balancing right somewhere, and that there's some problemsolving skill gaps. Is it the end of the world? No. But it's a good reason to be a little thoughtful and cautious. Something like this indicates that there may be something weird somewhere with someone's negotiation skills, or ability to read social situations. There are times this isn't a big deal, or that other coping skills compensate great - but I'd be looking for those coping skills if someone were running a group.

I know that she's had a bit of a cash flow problem recently, but I seldom hold that against someone. I think we've all been in a tight spot financially at one time or another.

Yep. And that's not the reason I'd be cautious. The reason I'd be cautious is that she's been through a significantly life-changing experience (divorce), is showing behaviors that negatively affect daily life (clutter that can create health or mobility risks), and is dependent on others for transportation (tricky for group members, far more complicated for an HPS). I have friends who don't drive for good medical reason, and I have another friend in a one-car household where I often give her rides: all three of them are aware of what limitations this places on what *types* of stuff they should take on, and how they should handle it.

If a group member ends up in hospital, could she get there? Could she arrive early at an event, and help prepare for it without depending on a ride? Would she be able to meet up with a group member who is having trouble, and is unable to drive? Can she attend other events in the community (or get together with leaders of other groups, in order to share ideas, support each other, etc.) without begging a ride? None of these things are a big deal all the time (and you mention being in the Bay Area, so being car-free might actually be okay for many of those things.) But they do come up.

It can be extraordinarily destructive to a group to have a group leader who is not dealing with their own trauma. I've known too many group leaders who - on going through a divorce or other equally life-changing situation - look at drawing their self-worth out of the group. This can appear to work great for a while - but it can be long-term damaging to them, and lead to major control issues (or ignoring legitimate issues in the group because addressing those issues would lead to chaos and possible loss of the group.

I've seen some of this play out in my own experience which is part of why I'm so strongly opinionated. I don't really want to talk more details in public, but there's some more specifics on why I think it's so risky in private (to anyone who's interested.) I'm also 2 years post separation/divorce at this point, and will continue to be struggling with money until I find a job to go with my new graduate degree. Part of why I'm opinionated is that I hold myself to the same standards but also intimately understand the issues.

I understand what you are saying here, and I suppose if I was going to make a regular habit out of hosting these things (which I am absolutely not gonna do!) that using these suggestions would be to the benefit of my continued sanity. However, I can't help but feel that I should have to "wild animal pagan proof" my home. Why should I be the one who has to go the extra mile because people can't be civilized and respectful?

Because it's not just about being civilized and respectful. Any time you put some larger number of people in a space, and you do things in that space it's not normally used for, there's a potential of some kinds of things. For example, a shelf that's not normally likely to be near an elbow (and where it's safe to keep breakable objects) may be just fine - but as soon as you move that couch, it may be directly at elbow height, especially if people are fairly dense.

It doesn't mean all the lovely things have to go away. But it does mean that if you're looking at moving furniture, or having more than a certain density of people, that you want to make sure they can't be accidentally knocked off. Yesterday, in the Clutter thread I started, I posted a link to photos of my (tiny!) little house. They were taken the morning of my housewarming/graduation from grad school party. The entire floor plan is 400 square feet: I had about 12 people here at once at one point.

One of my friends (with long experience of con and house parties) had told me very firmly that I needed to move a few things. I didn't need to remove them (the only door I have is my bathroom) but I did need to make sure they were all well back from the edge of whatever shelf they were on, and I moved a few irreplaceable things to places where they would be sure not to be bumped against, or that were going to be out of the way of the likely traffic patterns (the bookshelf in my bedroom, for example.) The photos show what I did: you can see there are still breakable items out, my altar is still set up. But stuff is pushed back from the edge, or on a higher shelf where it can't get bumped with an elbow, and so on.

It's a different mindset about hosting than having a few people over for dinner. (Where you don't move furniture.) It's also worth remembering that in a large group, you may have people who have minor mobility problems - two of my friends have arthritis or fibro issues that sometimes mean they think their hand (or elbow, or arm, or leg) is in one place, and it's actually somewhere else. They're *very* cautious, but every so often they have issues, and stuff that's close to an edge or in their hand might get dropped. They would be miserable, and they'd make an effort to replace it, and they try very hard not to let that happen - but short of not going out at all, it's going to happen sometimes. Part of being polite as a host is not putting them in that embarassing and unhappy situation. If everything is out of the way and not likely to be accidentally knocked, even if someone's hand jerks, and if my party servingware is either unbreakable or easily replaceable, I'm going to have a much happier party, too. 

I'm uncomfortable discussing this with them. Partly because the HP wasn't there and the HPS was - I feel like I'm tattling on her or something. They also have a dynamic between the two of them that sometimes puts me off. I feel like the HP is occasionally rude to the HPS - I have witnessed him on a few occasions getting snippy and short tempered with her. It makes me uncomfortable.

Both the fact you feel uncomfortable discussing this with them *and* the behavior you describe are both really excellent reasons to avoid the group in future, you know.

You're talking about group work where you want to do religious work, magical work, and other stuff that lets people into your heart and soul and head with these people. If you can't talk to them about "Hey, there's some stuff from this that really confused me, and frustrated me a bit - was this just everyone being off-kilter, or is this the way things normally run?" then you really need to be somewhere else. (On the HP: it's a little hard to tell without seeing them in action, and looking at what your reactions to some speech and behavior patterns: they may have no issues with it, after all. But the fact it makes you significantly uncomfortable is a problem for you, even if it isn't for them.)

Again, one of the things to look for in  group work, and particularly from the leadership, are people you want to become more like. It doesn't sound like you want that here. 

Yes, I am very old fashioned.

There's nothing terribly wrong with that. Just that if you're going to work with a group, there probably needs to be some adaptability. (For example, I was raised to send written thank you notes. I also know that they'd puzzle or confuse or make-feel-guilty several of the people I know, who were raised with equally valid but less overtly formal standards.) I subscribe to the Miss Manners school of "Etiquette is not supposed to make the person you're thanking feel guilty or miserable." So I do verbal thanks, email thanks when it's relevant (and in most cases, that involves my actually using the item) or if someone who went in on a group gift wasn't actually there when I got it. But I also spend most of my time with people where the relationship is a constant give and take and back-and-forth, and formal thanks would be weird.

For example, friends are taking me out for sushi and a concert tonight. My concert ticket was actually free (a buy 2, bring a friend free deal) but the sushi certainly isn't. I will definitely thank them, and it will likely come up in email afterwards that I had a fantastic time. But *they* consider it a thank you for my doing a bunch of driving (this is the friend with the one-car household) so that they can both do stuff they enjoy on Wednesday nights and other occasions. (This is also a "They have disposable income, I don't: I wouldn't be able to join them for dinner if they didn't treat." thing, but we all know that when the job situation changes for me, it'll end up more equitable again.)

There's nothing wrong with having high standards. But it's also good to consider what those high standards allow, and what they prevent, and what experiences might be worth some adaptability. And which ones might be worth saying "I want to do this" but being really clear about the house rules in advance.

[Zerynthia]

I think you were used and abused.

I am coming to a similar conclusion.

You didn't say how long the overall event was, but 15 minutes of chat afterwards seems short.

The regular monthly meetings follow a loose schedule of: arrive > begin potluck > start class & discussion when everyone is settled with their food > Bio break > Suggestions, discussion and consensus on what to do for ritual group work > preparation for ritual > ritual > possibly more eating and chat > everyone leaves.

People starting showing up at my back gate at 5pm. We wrapped up the ritual a little after midnight and by 12:30am, I was alone in my living room surrounded by a mess. I remember looking at the alarm clock when I tumbled into bed after cleaning the house. It was 2:34am.

You or your partner are going to be stuck putting the dishes in the dishwasher most times.  BUT, they others should have been asking for where to scrap food off of plates and more trashbags for the other stuff.

My dining room and kitchen are smallish rooms and you can't miss my two giant garbage cans. I pointed out which one was for trash and which was for recyclables to several individuals. They are also right next to the dining room table - unless you are on the opposite side of the table, you merely need to lean over to deposit trash in the appropriate can.
I should have taken pictures! Seriously - it was a pile!

It also sounds like they ritual people were very disorganized. I wonder what would have happened if you didn't have a copy of 777?  or parchment in the house?

Good question. I have no idea what would have happened.

Part of the planning process should have been to make sure you actually had enough cups, silverware, etc. At least you know to have stuff laid out or bought disposables.

The funny thing is - I know this stuff and practice it when I have enough notice. I graduated with my Masters degree at the end of June and hosted a party for my family and some friends. It was coincidentally the same number of people at both my party and at this...trainwreck. I knew I was graduating months in advance of course and sent out printed invitations, directions, etc. I also purchased drinks, food, disposable cups, plates, forks, napkins, etc. Even the champagne glasses were the plastic variety! Amazingly, even with children in my house during the party, nothing was broken, there was no chocolate on my books and clean up was simply putting the leftover cake in the fridge and taking a bag of recycling out.

I didn't have nearly enough notice or supplies to make this meeting turn out well. It was doomed from the start.

How long has this horde been around?  Does the HP (or his building) provide plates, silverware and disposable napkins, etc?  Or does he?  Or is somebody supposed to bring stuff?

Would you believe they've actually been around for over twenty years? The mantle of HP and HPS has been passed around between 3-4 individuals over the course of 2+ decades, but it's been surprisingly stable. I'm not certain about how and where things were done in the distant past, but I think I can safely assume that the meetings and rituals have been held in someone's home. I have the impression that the HP doesn't really care about his dishes and things, so he wouldn't be put out if someone broke something.

Also wonder how they would have handled it if you had said no at 3PM since it might have taken an hour to contact your partner.

Again, no idea. 

Really, this sounds like something that should have been worked out at least a month in advance. The HPs going to the Mens Mysteries doesn't sound like a short notice emergency.  Heck, it doesn't sound like an emergency at all. He had a choice, his regular group or the special event.

I agree with you. The local Hellenic Recon group has been around for years and years too and is well organized. I think it's quite probable that he's had a year's advance notice of when the Men's Mysteries event/camping trip would be, and it's always held in the same location.

[Jenett]

Really, this sounds like something that should have been worked out at least a month in advance. The HPs going to the Mens Mysteries doesn't sound like a short notice emergency.  Heck, it doesn't sound like an emergency at all. He had a choice, his regular group or the special event.

Wanted to comment on this bit specifically.

1) I agree they should have had plenty of notice to make other arrangements (going to a festival is rarely a last-minute sort of thing.)

2) That said, I think it's not only okay, but actually critical for people in leadership roles to have a chance to go do stuff outside the group (and in particular, outside a leadership role) on occasion. Otherwise, you lead to stagnation on their part, and burnout. Neither of those is good for them or the group.

Obviously, there are better and worse ways to handle it. When this has come up (where someone normally in a leadership role can't be there), it's good to have guidelines about what happens - who takes over which roles, etc. But it can be a really good time for people who are learning to do a role to step up and try it out. Or to try doing things a little differently.

But canceling a whole group event because of one absence doesn't make sense to me. And while it's ideal to schedule around it, that isn't always possible (especially with something like a larger festival.)

[elaoin]

Heh. If anything, this is a good reason to go solitary.

My philosophy is simple: people are going to do what people are going to do. Change is possible, but only when the individual desires to change and does the work required for change to occur. I am opinionated, I have my way of doing things - they work for me - but I never push them on others. If someone asks what I think, I will gladly share, otherwise, live and let live.
The upside and downside to this philosophy and the way I want to live my life is that since I do have standards that others do not seem to share, we (my partner and I) tend to be reclusive. Neither of us enjoy drama and unnecessary conflict, so we simply choose not to associate with people who would otherwise make our blood pressure ratchet up several dozen points.

My mother raised me a hermit. That said, I don't mind small gatherings of people I actually know - heck, give me some friends and a board/card/Dungeons and Dragons game and I'm set for hours! But should anyone need/want to use my place for the meeting... Well, aside from the fact we're still not totally moved in, I just wouldn't really like the idea. It's *my* place, where I can play hermit for a few hours. *shrug*

I don't think it's a reason to go solitary, but it's probably part of the reason I'm not as active in the pagan social life around here as I could be.

[Mandi]

I think I'm working my way up to steaming, from simply speechless. I'm just...overwhelmingly gobsmacked over this.

Here's what I'm getting from this.

You have a group of strangers over who don't know you from a hole in the wall.  Without the personal connection to you or your home, your home is less than a public restroom on the highway of life to them.

I think this is a great example of why jumping in with both feet can lead to some serious headaches.  Rather than having a chance to feel out the groups ritual behavior - eating BEFORE ritual???  Personally this would throw me so far off I would be ritually useless.  I might snack a little before ritual, but pizza?  Candy?  This sounds like an 8th grade social rather than a ritual.  Being stuffed with junk food doesn't leave me in a place where I can effectively move energy.

Ritual purpose is laid out well in advance and all activities build towards the evenings theme.  All are prepared for the theme ahead of time, and requested to bring ritual/altar items.  Potluck is after the circle is the opened, since the grounding that comes with food is more needed.

It sounds like you were used.  They surveyed the scene, cased the joint effectively, and behaved like locusts.  If you didn't have parchment, they would have used your printer paper.

There may have been some jealousy at play as well, since it sounds like you have a carefully eclectic home, which can sometimes give off the vibe of more prosperity than truly exists.  When things are carefully selected and well maintained it can look like much more than it is. 

[Mari]

eating BEFORE ritual???  Personally this would throw me so far off I would be ritually useless.  I might snack a little before ritual, but pizza?  Candy?  This sounds like an 8th grade social rather than a ritual.  Being stuffed with junk food doesn't leave me in a place where I can effectively move energy.

Yes. I wondered about that, too. With us, we potluck after ritual - but during class discussion. It's all part of our "god feast", which is more an extension of the ritual body than a casual meal with friends and family.

[Jenett]

Yes. I wondered about that, too. With us, we potluck after ritual - but during class discussion. It's all part of our "god feast", which is more an extension of the ritual body than a casual meal with friends and family.

I can see it both ways - we've traditionally done Dedicant class starting at 1pm or so, and sometimes, moon rituals will end up having a "Gather at 5 or 6" thing, when they fall on the same weekend. And in that case, it's really hard to ask people (even before you get into the fact we have people who do need to eat every few hours for medical reasons) to go from before 12 (when they'd need to prep for class/drive) until 7 or 8 with no food, and a lot of concentration (and often stuff that tends to burn energy like class or ritual.)

But in that case, the food isn't junk food - people bring potluck, there's good bread, cheese, etc. It's not soda and chips.

There are rituals I fast before (and times of year I'm traditionally far more careful: I go on a 'no soda, junk food, etc' fast the week before Samhain each year, and fast the day of, for example, and I fasted for my initiations to the fullest extent possible.)

But there are a lot of rituals where having a small, suitable meal, before is not going to be a big deal (and not having one might be a problem, depending on what the timing is like, what the rest of my day is like, etc.) Food after, though, in those cases, as well.

[Mari]

to go from before 12 (when they'd need to prep for class/drive) until 7 or 8

Ah. I see. Our stuff just never lasts that long. It has no reason to.

[Jenett]

Ah. I see. Our stuff just never lasts that long. It has no reason to.

Different methods, yep. Part of our choices have been to help consolidate driving but to also provide plenty of time for people to spend social time together (as well as do necessary set-up changes between class and ritual.) 

In this case, the arrival time is mentioned as 5ish, and people leaving at 12:30, which I can see going either way. (Though, personally, I'd have gone for ritual first, and then food and then class.)

The late night part would actually be a bigger issue for me: I don't mind doing it occasionally for a specific reason (Samhain, for example, to pick an upcoming example.) But as someone who leaves for work at 7am, and who really needs 8 hours sleep, being out that late on a regular basis would be really hard thing. (This has finally gotten better: I recently starting being able to sleep past 7 or 7:30 in the morning again for the first time in years, but previously, I'd do things like get home at 1 (leave somewhere at 12:30), take some time to fall into bed, and still wake up less than 6 hours later. Not fun, and not much good for me, either.

[Zerynthia]

But in that case, the food isn't junk food - people bring potluck, there's good bread, cheese, etc. It's not soda and chips.

I've noticed (for two classes now) that it is a lot of sweets and junk food. For the potluck that happened at my house, it was a bucket of KFC, 2 pizzas delivered by round table, baklava, a store-bought apple pie, a box of hazelnut filled chocolates, a container of macaroni salad from KFC and pistachios.

I supplied the wine for the ritual, and "cakes" were a plate of the hazelnut chocolate thingies because no one brought bread.

[ExperimentalPaganism]

Just curious if there are written or unwritten rules about ritual etiquette when the meeting or class or ritual is held in someone's home?

What are the expectations of the host/ess? What are the expectations of the guests?

Yes, I do have a story behind this, but I wanted to see if perhaps other people knew something I do not.

I hope I am not violating any guidelines by posting this...

(Remainder of content removed for unapproved professional research and possible advertising.  --Star)

[Star]

I hope I am not violating any guidelines by posting this

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The appropriate way to find that out would be to actually read the rules, not to post and hope it's OK.  In this case, yes, you are violating our research guidelines.  (And possibly the advertising guidelines too, but I'm choosing to give you the benefit of the doubt here and believe that you really were only interested in research and not in advertising.)  You can find them in the Rules section, accessible via the link in the top menu.  As soon as I post this message, I will be removing the content of yours.  If you wish to re-post it, you will need to follow the guidelines outlined in the rules section.  Continuing to post research requests without approval will result in a gag and/or ban.  This is your first official warning.

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