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Author Topic: A Christian political leader on the threat of a third party  (Read 17209 times)
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« Reply #45: November 16, 2007, 02:54:28 pm »

SO no, I really don't trust smalltown america when it comes to my rights as a minority.

Nor do I, in general terms; even in relatively-progressive Bloomington I've heard things like...  one day, in line at the drugstore, the woman in line in front of me mentioned to the pharmacist that the police ought to go arrest those people protesting the war on the courthouse lawn (which they were doing by sitting there and holding signs), and the pharmacist agreed with her.  It's not the same as outlawing interracial marriage, no, but it scares me on the same "these people's ideas about my rights are not my ideas about my rights" level.

I hadn't intended to imply that small-town America should be trusted with our rights; I was just making general comments in reply to Pyperlie's comment about economics and stuff, was all.

(As for me, I'm not sure I trust the Feds or the state, but I'm not sure who I necessarily would trust in this day and age.)
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« Reply #46: November 16, 2007, 05:42:10 pm »

Nor do I, in general terms; even in relatively-progressive Bloomington I've heard things like...  one day, in line at the drugstore, the woman in line in front of me mentioned to the pharmacist that the police ought to go arrest those people protesting the war on the courthouse lawn (which they were doing by sitting there and holding signs), and the pharmacist agreed with her.  It's not the same as outlawing interracial marriage, no, but it scares me on the same "these people's ideas about my rights are not my ideas about my rights" level.

I hadn't intended to imply that small-town America should be trusted with our rights; I was just making general comments in reply to Pyperlie's comment about economics and stuff, was all.

(As for me, I'm not sure I trust the Feds or the state, but I'm not sure who I necessarily would trust in this day and age.)

Yeah mine was in general agreement with you and her.

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« Reply #47: November 17, 2007, 11:06:33 am »


They are a direct result of what happens in a country that pisses on it's constitution to let it's Supreme Court APPOINT it's president; a president who, I might emphasize, lost the popular vote but won the Electoral vote.  And I, for one, have no idea how the Electors get appointed, and moreover, why they are not obligated to vote the way their district did.  The entire process is shrouded in secrecy; damned if I could tell you who my Elector is, and that should be common knowledge.


You don't vote or appoint the members of the Electrol College. 

OK, Govt 201. You can read below or read this link http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/

The constituation mandates that the president will be elected not by the popular vote, but by the electoral college.  Each state gets one vote for each member of the House of Reps that it has plus two for the two Senators.

Most, but not all states, are winner take all for voting.  Add up the all the votes in the state and the single canidate that got the Most votes wins ALL the electorl college votes for that state. 

The people who are the electors for the electrol college are chosen by the winning canidate, or rather the winner's party. They are honor bound to vote for the winner from their state, but not legally required to do so. These people are generally state party members.

BTW, without the electrol college, Dennis Hastert (R - Illonios) would like have been the President in 2000.

And if you want to know who the electors were in 2000:  http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/2000/members.html
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« Reply #48: November 17, 2007, 11:57:46 am »


Well, I think Bloomington is relatively nice and successful, but then I've got little basis for comparison, having not lived anywhere else since I was five.  I know it's more prosperous than the surrounding area (possibly excluding Nashville, but it's got that artist's-community thing going on).  And I know for certain it's more diverse and liberal than the surrounding area (Nashville included this time).

I've lived here my whole life, so I feel ya'.  Around here, it was just a lotta white religious fanatics for a long time (when I was starting elem. we really started getting immigrants from Mexico, so it's never really been like that IME, though the excess religiosity ain't just a white thing hereabouts).  In the past few years, though, diversity has really taken off.  We're getting N. Africans and Arab Muslims and Indians now, which is pretty cool, but I've noticed people are having a hard time adjusting to it.  And I must admit it was pretty throwing the first time I saw African dudes in those mumu-looking robes (dunno what their called) and cool hats.  Cheesy

We have had a few incidents, though not as many as one would expect.  Like, at one of the grocery stores around here where my bro works, some @$$%0!# told a Muslim couple not to bomb the place.  Angry  I told my brother he shoulda told that guy not to blow up his neighborhood; that he should leave meth-making to the professionals.

Gang fights are up every year, and it's really getting out of hand, but I suspect it was only a matter of time.

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Re: Evansville, I don't know a whole lot about it myself, but my impression was that it wasn't just a college town, that it had other industry going on too, much like Terre Haute or Indy or someplace like that.  In Bloomington, the thing is, if Indiana University were to leave town for some reason Bloomington would dry up and blow away.  I exaggerate perhaps a little there, but not much.  The university is the major business and "industry" in town.  We used to have a bunch of factories that probably would've held things a little more stable, but most of them are gone now.  The university rules the town, and I think that's why its progressive attitude is so pervasive here.  In a city where things are a little more balanced, that probably wouldn't be so much the case.  All of which may have nothing to do with your point, but I thought I'd throw it out there.  Cheesy

See, I almost never hear bad things about Bloomington.  There's the occasional murder, but it's not every other week like y'hear outta South Bend (I swear, every time you turn around someone is missing or dead in that town; there was a homeless guy and an accomplice killing other homeless guys and hiding their bodies in the sewer to steal scrap copper from  Shocked ).  Between that and LeSea Broadcasting...

Of course, nowhere in this state has so violent a reputation as Gary; it's our Detroit.  Maybe it's a factory town thing; SB has a fair few factories, and this has always been an industrial area; just about every town and pissant village north of Jay County has at least one or 2 factories. 

The northern part of the state does have a few college towns:  SB has ND, St. Mary's, and IUSB (which IMO is a pretty crappy branch; all the potential majors I would want are in, you guessed it, Bloomington), they've got an Ivy Tech in almost every county (even Ivy Tech's best majors are only at the Bloomington branch), there's a Biblical Seminary in SB-Mish, and several Liberal Arts private colleges, w/the most annoying kind of self-righteous wanna-be neo-hippie posers making up the largest share of their student body, spread over the Gary to FW rectangle.  But none of these are primarily college towns; even in SB, it depends on the part of the city you're in whether it's more under the influence of the colleges or the other parts of the economy.
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« Reply #49: November 17, 2007, 12:42:16 pm »


You don't vote or appoint the members of the Electrol College. 

OK, Govt 201. You can read below or read this link http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/

<snip>

And if you want to know who the electors were in 2000:  http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/2000/members.html

Those are very useful sites, btw, thanks.  You're always educational.  Smiley

Quote
The constituation mandates that the president will be elected not by the popular vote, but by the electoral college.  Each state gets one vote for each member of the House of Reps that it has plus two for the two Senators.

Most, but not all states, are winner take all for voting.  Add up the all the votes in the state and the single canidate that got the Most votes wins ALL the electorl college votes for that state. 

That part I was aware of.  My primary complaint is that there is very little effort to educate the public about the system itself or the Electors.  I mean, those sites are great for those of us w/internet access, but a lotta people don't have it, and getting info from the gov't through letter writing is a huge PITA; it's hard to even know who you should be writing to for the info you want.  Along w/the propagandistic crap sent us by our reps, they outta send the name and contact info of the state's Electors.

Also, it shouldn't, IMO, be winner take all in any state; if we must have an EC, it should be proportional.  And seeing as the Senate used to be chosen by Electors, too, and changing that didn't lead to the end of the nation, I doubt doing away w/the EC altogether would either.

Quote
The people who are the electors for the electrol college are chosen by the winning canidate, or rather the winner's party. They are honor bound to vote for the winner from their state, but not legally required to do so. These people are generally state party members.

What exactly does "chosen by the winning party" mean?  I checked the website, and that's what it said, too.  Does that mean the winning party from the last election?

Although, that kinda honks me off as well.  It just helps to perpetuate the 2 party system and keeps the 2 who happen to currently dominate in power.  It screws over third parties and makes changing the system harder.

And I put more faith in legal obligation than honor obligation for people in power.

Quote
BTW, without the electrol college, Dennis Hastert (R - Illonios) would like have been the President in 2000.

...Maybe I'm just thick, but...how on Earth do you figure that?  He wasn't running.  Would he've been prez until the dispute about the winner was settled?  Because Clinton had it until January something, and the USSC declared a winner  Angry long before that.
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« Reply #50: November 17, 2007, 01:05:43 pm »

Those are very useful sites, btw, thanks.  You're always educational.  Smiley

That part I was aware of.  My primary complaint is that there is very little effort to educate the public about the system itself or the Electors.  I mean, those sites are great for those of us w/internet access, but a lotta people don't have it, and getting info from the gov't through letter writing is a huge PITA; it's hard to even know who you should be writing to for the info you want.  Along w/the propagandistic crap sent us by our reps, they outta send the name and contact info of the state's Electors.

Also, it shouldn't, IMO, be winner take all in any state; if we must have an EC, it should be proportional.  And seeing as the Senate used to be chosen by Electors, too, and changing that didn't lead to the end of the nation, I doubt doing away w/the EC altogether would either.

What exactly does "chosen by the winning party" mean?  I checked the website, and that's what it said, too.  Does that mean the winning party from the last election?

Although, that kinda honks me off as well.  It just helps to perpetuate the 2 party system and keeps the 2 who happen to currently dominate in power.  It screws over third parties and makes changing the system harder.

And I put more faith in legal obligation than honor obligation for people in power.

...Maybe I'm just thick, but...how on Earth do you figure that?  He wasn't running.  Would he've been prez until the dispute about the winner was settled?  Because Clinton had it until January something, and the USSC declared a winner  Angry long before that.


Clinton Had to step down at the end of 2nd term. No legal way for him to continue on as POTUS.  With the vote in contention in Florida, and IF the USSC Didn't stop the recounts, a lack of clear winner would put the Speaker of the House in a President. Kind of far fetched in some ways, but enough to base a SF novel on if somebody want to write one.

The electors are choosen by the party that wins that election. Electors only exist for the time period of Nov election until they vote for the president in December. So for about a month they hold the job. It's then vacent until 4 years later.

I agree that winner take all is poor. It is up to each state to determine how they want to do it.  It could be done proportional to the entire state. It could be done by each House district with the 2 electors (from the Senator seats) going to the overall state winner.  Lobby Your state to implement it if you want.  It would also show that Blue State / Red State is bogus.  It's Red County / Blue Country, and those divides are clearer.

The information is generally availiable in a decent high school text book, but it's poorly taugtht or glossed over in most schools.  Most of the time, the popular vote matches the electoral outcome.

Yes, it does make it harder for 3rd parties, but that's only for the Presidential election.

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« Reply #51: November 17, 2007, 03:46:20 pm »

USSC

SCOTUS, not USSC.  It's the Supreme Court of the United States, not the United States Supreme Court.

I know, it's a bizarrely small nit for me to be picking, but using the incorrect acronym for the Court is one of my weird peeves.
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« Reply #52: November 17, 2007, 03:52:30 pm »

SCOTUS, not USSC.  It's the Supreme Court of the United States, not the United States Supreme Court.

I know, it's a bizarrely small nit for me to be picking, but using the incorrect acronym for the Court is one of my weird peeves.

Stupid mistake on my part. I know the correct abbreviation, but blanked on it as I wrote.
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« Reply #53: November 17, 2007, 05:26:42 pm »

Clinton Had to step down at the end of 2nd term. No legal way for him to continue on as POTUS.  With the vote in contention in Florida, and IF the USSC Didn't stop the recounts, a lack of clear winner would put the Speaker of the House in a President. Kind of far fetched in some ways, but enough to base a SF novel on if somebody want to write one.

Sorry, Peter, it would not have haven't that way.  The USSC had no business getting involved as the Constitutuion already provides a prodecure for handling both contested election results AND the rare case on no one getting a majority of the valid votes in the Electoral College.  It's called CONGRESS. In the case of disputed returns, Congress decides which ones are official. This procedure has been used many times in the past -- the last time in a major way in the 1960 when 2 or 3 states had disputed returns.  In the case where no one gets a majority of the electoral votes (because of 3 or more candidates, the electoral vote of one of more states being disqualified, etc.) Congress decides the races: The House votes on the President with one vote per state and the Senate votes on the VP with one vote per state. 

This is all spelled out in the Constitution -- and nowhere therein in the USSC even mentioned in the process as elections are a political procedure not a legal issue.
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« Reply #54: November 17, 2007, 07:16:07 pm »

See, I almost never hear bad things about Bloomington.  There's the occasional murder, but it's not every other week like y'hear outta South Bend

Well, yeah.  Overall it's a pretty decent place to live, and not really violent at all.  I mean, it happens here and there, but frankly it's not really very much in the grand scheme of things.  I think that's one reason why the Jill Behrman case got such press down here when she disappeared (and later turned up dead in Morgan County), because it's something that just doesn't happen much around here.
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« Reply #55: November 19, 2007, 11:13:42 am »


Yes, it does make it harder for 3rd parties, but that's only for the Presidential election.

I'm a big believer in the power of the bully pulpit (and unfortunately, Dubya has worked his ass off to prove the evil side of that); a third party winning the presidency would open up opportunities for other members of said party w/r/t the Congress, and bring a fresh perspective to the top tier of gov't.  Admittedly, there are a lotta third parties who are marginalized for a reason (John Birch Society, anyone), but not all of them are made up of nutsos.
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              -----Richard Feynman

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