The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
September 22, 2019, 04:42:31 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 22, 2019, 04:42:31 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Divorce and your faith  (Read 8949 times)
Sperran
Reserve Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:October 18, 2014, 02:07:12 am
United States United States

Religion: Judaism
Posts: 2945


Adonai Echad

Blog entries (8)


« Topic Start: October 23, 2007, 10:06:03 pm »

What does your faith say about divorce?  For example, is there a religious component of obtaining a divorce or otherwise formally severing a relationship?  If so, what?  Does your faith discourage divorce?  Does your faith specifically outline circumstances in which divorce is an optimal choice?

Sperran
Logged

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Starglade
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:April 02, 2012, 03:07:59 pm
United States United States

Religion: Tibetan Buddhist
TCN ID: Starglade
Posts: 1614


Life is a work in progress.

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #1: October 23, 2007, 10:27:03 pm »



"As one of the essential Buddhist teachings is that everything is impermanent and subject to change, the irrevocable breakdown of a relationship between a couple would be understood in this light, so divorce would not be considered improper." (From Buddhanet.net, http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/budethics.htm)

In fact, marriage isn't a sacrament in Buddhism. A Buddhist is expected to follow the civil laws governing marriage in his/her country.

Logged

The source of all misery in the world lies in thinking of oneself. The source of all happiness lies in thinking of others. -- Shantideva

My public transcript is available for viewing.
http://www.brainbench.com/transcript.jsp?pid=7189853
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 17, 2019, 11:13:29 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #2: October 23, 2007, 10:31:20 pm »

What does your faith say about divorce?

Not much -- marriage wasn't really a religious matter in ancient Greece.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:September 13, 2019, 12:41:51 am
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #3: October 23, 2007, 10:35:56 pm »

What does your faith say about divorce?

It's the dissolution of a legal contract, like marriage is the formation of a legal contract.  (The idea of marriage being in some way religious is ... weird to me.  And it pisses me off when I see people claiming to be strict Egyptian recons performing religious marriages; it comes off as assimilating values from surrounding Christian culture without any thought whatsoever, as there's no plausible theology to back it up.  It's just made up to fit in because people assume that marriage has to have something to do with religion.)

I can comment on Egyptian marriage and divorce proceedings in some detail, but that's history, not theology.
Logged

HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #4: October 24, 2007, 07:28:21 am »


When staying together is worse for people involved then splitting up, then splitting up is necessary.

Basically, in FlameKeeping, you HAVE to take care of yourself.  If you're in a relationship that's damaging you, you need to get out.  There's no virtue in self-martyrdom.

That said, I think divorce should be something that's carefully thought out.  And that people who are having multiple relationships and multiple divorces need to step back and think about what they're doing - after all, the common denominator in each relationship is themselves.

And divorce should be a last resort, not a first.  If a relationship is important enough to marry in the first place, the people involved should attempt to salvage it if at all possible.  Couples therapy and the like.  But it has to be BOTH people, or there's no point.
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 17, 2019, 11:13:29 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #5: October 24, 2007, 08:32:40 am »

And divorce should be a last resort, not a first.  If a relationship is important enough to marry in the first place, the people involved should attempt to salvage it if at all possible.  Couples therapy and the like.  But it has to be BOTH people, or there's no point.

This is my problem with divorce in the US, it is a bit too easy and so has become far from the last resort for many people. If the marriage isn't close to perfect, get a divorce and try for perfection again. Sad
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Sperran
Reserve Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:October 18, 2014, 02:07:12 am
United States United States

Religion: Judaism
Posts: 2945


Adonai Echad

Blog entries (8)


« Reply #6: October 24, 2007, 08:51:54 am »

This is my problem with divorce in the US, it is a bit too easy and so has become far from the last resort for many people. If the marriage isn't close to perfect, get a divorce and try for perfection again. Sad

Do you mean it is too easy on a legal level, or on a personal level?  I don't think we should go back to the days in which no-fault divorce didn't exist.  I think that legally, it should be relatively easy to get a divorce.  I do think there needs to be a change on the *personal* level for many people.  I honestly think that too much emphasis is placed on romantic love.  That kind of love makes you feel all squishy, but it isn't going to keep the marriage going.  Marriages survive and thrive on the kind of love that changes diapers at 2:00 o'clock in the morning, not the kind that fills the bathtub with rose petals. 

I also think that a lot of the problem is that people simply do not take commitment as seriously as they did in previous generations.  The idea of breaking a contract, many times one that is made as a promise to God as well as people seems to be taken much more lightly today.  Now, I am not opposed to the idea of temporary marriages and the like.  But I think that people should think about these issues before they select their marriage vows and proceed.

Sperran
Logged
Jenett
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:September 13, 2019, 02:34:46 pm
United States United States

Religion: Priestess in initiatory religious witchcraft tradition
Posts: 2506


Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7: October 24, 2007, 10:21:25 am »

What does your faith say about divorce?  For example, is there a religious component of obtaining a divorce or otherwise formally severing a relationship?  If so, what?  Does your faith discourage divorce?  Does your faith specifically outline circumstances in which divorce is an optimal choice?

No particularly faith-based requirements. I am, however, extraordinarily glad for support in the idea that divorce was, in fact, the right thing to do in my particular situation. (Especially having come from a religious and cultural background where it's seen as somewhat shameful or at least a major disappointment.) It did a lot to help with immediate recovery.

My actual wedding did not involve any religious language (it was done by a co-worker with legal ability to marry.) My ex had issues with religious language, and I was only barely into my Dedicant year (hadn't started training, even) at the time. No vows before deity, only commitments to each other, and which did have an out clause.

I have very mixed feelings about things like couples counselling, based on my own experience. By the time we decided to separate, I didn't push for (or actually, now I think about it, even consider) counselling - but we'd already had a painfully hard year, he had lied to me by omission about something that could have had significant health consequences (but fortunately seems not to have), and I'm now pretty convinced that he flat out directly lied to my face in regards to a very specific question ("Do you know anything else about X situation you haven't told me?") about something else that could have had significant legal implications for him and by extension, for me. (We also *so* didn't have the money to pay for such a thing, basically due to some of his choices.)

I was tentatively willing (this was before I figured the direct-lie issue out, which is relatively recent), to give him a chance to repair the first problem, but had asked him for some actions to help convince me that he did, in fact, care about trying to work things out and addressing the specific issues involved. He flatly ignored the request. At that point, I basically went "Ok, well then." and came to the conclusion that the relationship not only wasn't salvageable (in part because how do you get back that kind of trust?) but that I didn't want to be around someone who would do those things and treat it that way anyway. (Someone pointed out the "Would you take this behavior from a friend?" guideline to me, and I went "No. Erm. Right. Need to do something about that.")

Two years, later, reflecting, I am glad of a religion that encourages me to use my brain on such things, rather than necessarily dictating a particular course of action or set of options. I was certainly talking to people I trusted (including my religious group leaders, but not *just* them) and getting advice, but I've been told by friends who are marriage and family therapists that given the specifics, counseling would likely not have made any difference except in raising our frustrations.

I did like how Minnesota handles the legal side. If you're like us (no kids, no property, assets under a certain amount), you've been married less than 7 years, and you both agree on how it's split, you fill out some paperwork, turn it into the county courthouse with a check, and you get mail back a month or two later certifying it.

If there's property over a certain amount (far lower than 'we own a house together': I think the limit was something like $30K) or kids involved, or any disagreement, it's a longer process, and you actually have to go in front of the judge (who apparently makes sure you really are both sure what you want, arbitrates any disagreements, and generally makes sure stuff is either fair, or fairly agreed to.) That seemed to recognise that there are factors that make getting out of the relationship (in purely legal terms) more or less complicated, and factoring them in reasonably sensible ways.
Logged

Blog: Thoughts from a threshold: http://gleewood.org/threshold
Info for seekers: http://gleewood.org/seeking
Pagan books and resources: http://gleewood.org/books
Oaksworn
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:December 25, 2017, 06:17:47 pm
United States United States

Religion: Energy worker with hedgewitch tendencies
Posts: 1116


Reality is but perception.

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #8: October 24, 2007, 10:33:18 am »

Does your faith specifically outline circumstances in which divorce is an optimal choice?

Kind of a hard question to answer, Sperran, in that I don't follow any specified faith unless jury-rig can be considered a path...  I will say that it is my belief that relationships, left to their own devices without additional effort by the people involved, tend to act like a wind up toy - eventually they run out of energy.

Without the parties involved in the relationship, any relationship: friends, romance, business, etc., putting in the time and effort to keep the relationship alive it will begin to fall apart.  It's up to those involved at that point to decied whether it's worth it to them to put in the effort to salvage the relationship based on their particular circumstances.
Logged

"Then I will tell you a great secret, Captain. Perhaps the greatest of all time. The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make up this station, and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are starstuff. We are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out. As we have both learned, sometimes the universe requires a change of perspective. " ~ Delenn, Babylon 5
Oaksworn
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:December 25, 2017, 06:17:47 pm
United States United States

Religion: Energy worker with hedgewitch tendencies
Posts: 1116


Reality is but perception.

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #9: October 24, 2007, 10:52:21 am »

I do think there needs to be a change on the *personal* level for many people.  I honestly think that too much emphasis is placed on romantic love.  That kind of love makes you feel all squishy, but it isn't going to keep the marriage going.  Marriages survive and thrive on the kind of love that changes diapers at 2:00 o'clock in the morning, not the kind that fills the bathtub with rose petals.

I agree that there is a significant predilection amongst people now-a-days to treat marriage as disposable.  I would suggest that this is a perspective that has come to pass in recent decades due to an industrial society with the attitude of, "Oh, well, it's broken.  Just toss it out and buy another one."

I find it ruefully amusing that we have laws against parallel polygamy and yet serial polygamy has become de rigeur.  Especially when you consider that of the interviews I've seen of parallel polygamists, and by this I mean those of the Mormon faith who agree to interviews, they seem by-and-large happier than others with a single partner. 

By the time I graduated high school I had been an unwilling participant in three divorces and a fourth well on it's way.  When my wife and I got married I made her a promise, "I am only getting married once this lifetime.  No matter what happens we work it out."  I have no intention of treating my wife nor my children with the kind of callous disregard and perception of inconveniance that so many seem to have for their marriage vows.  But then, I'm a romantic at heart, which, now that I stop and consider how I grew up, is nothing short of miraculous.
Logged

"Then I will tell you a great secret, Captain. Perhaps the greatest of all time. The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make up this station, and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are starstuff. We are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out. As we have both learned, sometimes the universe requires a change of perspective. " ~ Delenn, Babylon 5
juniperrr
Master Member
****
Last Login:December 01, 2008, 03:35:10 pm
United States United States

Posts: 264

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #10: October 24, 2007, 01:11:22 pm »

What does your faith say about divorce?  For example, is there a religious component of obtaining a divorce or otherwise formally severing a relationship?  If so, what?  Does your faith discourage divorce?  Does your faith specifically outline circumstances in which divorce is an optimal choice?

Well, my personal philosophy is non-committal about divorce, as it is non-committal about marriage. I take vows made, however, very seriously. I would never have considered marrying my husband with out the three years we lived together beforehand. When we Handfasted and pledged to be joined with the blessings of the Elements and the Univeral Spirit, I find that very binding and not something to be made lightly. We legally married more for mundane reasons (it worked better for our business and co-owned property), it was the Handfasting that was important to me, which can be done with legal implications or no. A promise is a promise.

Having made vows to be joined in life with a partner, I feel it is our responsibility to do everything possible to make it work. However, should it not work after all avenues (couple and/or personal counseling, temporary separations, what ever the couple thinks may help) have been pursued and it is still a mess, moving on is perfectly okay and IMNSHO the healthiest step for all concerned. However, for me personally, at the very least an "Ending Ritual" would be performed to clean up loose ends.
Logged
Áine
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:July 18, 2009, 08:41:03 pm
United States United States

Religion: Random Witchcraft
TCN ID: anya
Posts: 883


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #11: October 24, 2007, 01:51:00 pm »

What does your faith say about divorce?  For example, is there a religious component of obtaining a divorce or otherwise formally severing a relationship?  If so, what?  Does your faith discourage divorce?  Does your faith specifically outline circumstances in which divorce is an optimal choice?

Sperran

I'm not a fan of marriage, but if I had an unhappy marriage in which it was best to leave it, then I would have no problem with it. 
Logged


*Síocháin*
Star
Message Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:January 12, 2013, 08:36:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Reconstructionist
TCN ID: star
Posts: 9033


Etcetera, Whatever

Blog entries (0)

ilaynay starcr
WWW
« Reply #12: October 24, 2007, 01:58:41 pm »

What does your faith say about divorce?  For example, is there a religious component of obtaining a divorce or otherwise formally severing a relationship?  If so, what?  Does your faith discourage divorce?  Does your faith specifically outline circumstances in which divorce is an optimal choice?

The closest I come to a religious take on divorce is that I take vows very seriously, and I tend to feel that in a lot of situations divorce is a breaking of the marriage vows.  (Which are not necessarily religious in and of themselves.)  That said, that doesn't mean there aren't circumstances under which that's just what has to happen anyway, and that can't be helped.  But I do feel like there are a lot of people taking marriage vows entirely too lightly and being kind of like, "Oh, well, if it doesn't work out we can always just get a divorce," and not putting the effort into keeping the vow that I feel should be there.

Of course, then you get into marriages set up as temporary or "as long as love lasts" or something rather than being explicitly set up as lifetime commitments.  That really doesn't bother me, personally, as long as the nature of the arrangement is understood by both parties going into it.  It's when a vow is made "as long as we both shall live" and then by the time the first anniversary rolls around they're calling their divorce lawyers because of some really basic problem that could easily have been discovered before they'd taken the step of getting married if they'd just thought about it before jumping in that bugs me.

Of course, ultimately I consider other people's lives none of my business anyway.  Smiley  So the main thing here, I guess, is that my own marriage was made "until death do us part", and for my part I consider that to be a very serious commitment which requires me to work hard at maintaining my relationship with my husband and some pretty extreme circumstances would be required to make me even consider divorce as an option.
Logged

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced."
-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.
Dania
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 17, 2008, 08:11:47 pm
United States United States

Religion: Gwyddon Seeker
Posts: 2895


Queen of Hare-Brained Schemes

Blog entries (4)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #13: October 24, 2007, 02:12:32 pm »

Basically, in FlameKeeping, you HAVE to take care of yourself.  If you're in a relationship that's damaging you, you need to get out.  There's no virtue in self-martyrdom.

That said, I think divorce should be something that's carefully thought out.  And that people who are having multiple relationships and multiple divorces need to step back and think about what they're doing - after all, the common denominator in each relationship is themselves.

And divorce should be a last resort, not a first.  If a relationship is important enough to marry in the first place, the people involved should attempt to salvage it if at all possible.  Couples therapy and the like.  But it has to be BOTH people, or there's no point.

I agree with all of this, actually. Divorce should not be an "easy out" however, there's absolutely no reason to stay together if you are somehow being hurt by the relationship, or it's really not working out.
Logged


RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 17, 2019, 11:13:29 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #14: October 24, 2007, 05:27:18 pm »

Do you mean it is too easy on a legal level, or on a personal level?  I don't think we should go back to the days in which no-fault divorce didn't exist.  I think that legally, it should be relatively easy to get a divorce.  I do think there needs to be a change on the *personal* level for many people.

I think most of the change should be on the personal level, but some minor changes at the legal level where real abuse is not involved might help too.

Quote
I also think that a lot of the problem is that people simply do not take commitment as seriously as they did in previous generations.  The idea of breaking a contract, many times one that is made as a promise to God as well as people seems to be taken much more lightly today.

It's hard to take contracts seriously at the personal level any more when businesses (the big example most people see) are setting a "anything you can wiggle out of" example.

Quote
Now, I am not opposed to the idea of temporary marriages and the like.
 

I think more "upfront" options like this would be a good thing.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Ordeals, Trials, Tests of Faith « 1 2 »
Pagan Spirituality
Aster Breo 26 6371 Last post April 15, 2008, 02:40:57 am
by Waldfrau
An Evangelical Rethink on Divorce?
Religious News
LyricFox 4 1530 Last post November 07, 2007, 07:16:13 am
by Melamphoros
Faith Healing
Non-Pagan Religions and Interfaith Discussions
dragonfaerie 11 3793 Last post March 08, 2009, 03:05:13 pm
by fatalperfection
Religious Divorce « 1 2 3 4 »
Faith in Everyday Life
Sperran 59 11684 Last post May 31, 2009, 12:09:40 pm
by sailor_tech
Divorce and neopaganism « 1 2 »
Pagan Spirituality
theperfumer 22 4910 Last post July 21, 2010, 05:23:16 pm
by sailor_tech
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.059 seconds with 49 queries.