Magic vs Religious Ceremony

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[RandallS]

I relate to some of the ancient Greek deities (and Nordic ones, too) but what good would it really do me to suddenly hold forth in Old Norse or Ancient Greek?  But then, I am obtuse...

Perhaps the Gods are sentimental and like to hear the old languages?

[Syrbal]

Perhaps the Gods are sentimental and like to hear the old languages?

LOL..well there is that.  Once, in a meditational invocation of sorts, one of the Native American deities ..Sedna said to me "You are not one of MINE...why did you call?"  I kind of wished I knew something in her language about then, lol!  But it all worked out alright.

[Walker]

Well, the subsequent positive character development is a good sign for those denominations that require it, but most denominations I've seen tend to view "baptism of/in the Holy Spirit" only as one or both of the following:
A): Grand Mal seizures
B): Speaking in a "personal prayer language."  In my experience, 90% of these "personal prayer languages" are random collections of syllables that have no basis whatsoever in actual linguistics.  When queried about this, the believers in this "personal prayer language" will say this is because it's a "personal" language meant for direct communication with "Gawd" so that Satan can't hear or interfere (I kid you not).  This, of course, ignores the fact that the "tongues" spoken in the Biblical accounts of such phenomena were REAL languages.

agreed, one of the reasons I don't take my kids around these people.  For some perspective, though, the original idea of a 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' was one of empowerment to be an effective witness (Acts 1: by imparting supernatural (original intent of word translated spiritual 1 Corinthians 12-14) abilities.

The miracle on the day of Pentecost recorded in Acts chapter two was not only that the baptized ones were 'speaking in tongues' but also in the ears of the audience-each one of them heard them in their own language.

1 Corinthians 13:1 creates the possibility of angelic languages being involved, along with a personal interpretation (14:5).

The purpose of the tongues is actualy threefold: 1) a method of worship best practiced privately or among others so inclined 2) a prophetic utterence that requires an interpretation usually experienced in a corporate setting 3) personal empowerment-1 Corinthians 14:4 & Jude 20

The third point, personal empowerment, is integral.  The common experience of most that have experienced this is that when they are feeling weak, confused, or disconected from Source that a few moments of focus and utilization of this 'prayer language' fixes whatever is ailing them and creates an atmosphere conducive to manifestation, ie: majik.  Episodes such as the gentle lady described, offering a divine word of comfort or encouragement, wether in a native tongue or not, is not uncommon and a beautifull example of right use of charismatic gifts.

Look, I ain't even trying to defend what all people do and call it Bible based Christianity.  I don't present myself as a Christian anymore simply because I don't want to be associated with whatever comes up in someones mind when they hear the word 'Christian.' 

I am a disciple of Jesus, he has called me and taught me and he has my allegience.  I hear from others at times and seek the council of others when so inclined.

The reason I mention this is if someone asks me if I'm a pagan or a witch and I say yes will I incurr the wrath and disdain of none, some, most, or all when they learn of my affiliation with Jesus?  (seemed a decent place to ask, if it is to off topic I apologize in advance)

Peace & Light, Walker

[rose]

The reason I mention this is if someone asks me if I'm a pagan or a witch and I say yes will I incurr the wrath and disdain of none, some, most, or all when they learn of my affiliation with Jesus?  (seemed a decent place to ask, if it is to off topic I apologize in advance)

Why would it? Jesus was an enlightened being and a transcendent master. We serve Those who call us. There are many metaphysical writers who don't identify as Christian per se, but do serve Jesus.
I'm thinking specifically of Dion Fortune and Betty Bethards, but there are plenty.

[Walker]

Why would it? Jesus was an enlightened being and a transcendent master. We serve Those who call us. There are many metaphysical writers who don't identify as Christian per se, but do serve Jesus.
I'm thinking specifically of Dion Fortune and Betty Bethards, but there are plenty.

Thank You, I will check out both of those folks.  I hadn't run across any lititure that allowed for that distinction except in the sense of Islam & Hinduism's acknowledgement of Jesus as prophet or a guru/yogi. 

Peace & Light, Walker

[SunflowerP]

There are many metaphysical writers who don't identify as Christian per se, but do serve Jesus.
I'm thinking specifically of Dion Fortune and Betty Bethards, but there are plenty.

Picking a nit here, since the point you're making is sound and I'm just talking about how you phrased it, but Dion Fortune did self-identify as Christian.

Sunflower

[rose]

Picking a nit here, since the point you're making is sound and I'm just talking about how you phrased it, but Dion Fortune did self-identify as Christian.

Sunflower

yep-tis true. She does talk alot about it in "Psychic Self Defense", but not in terms of practicing any particular strain of Christianity, I don't think (although one assumes super High Church, as she was a Western Mystery Tradition type of gal).

[guineith]

Thank You, I will check out both of those folks.  I hadn't run across any lititure that allowed for that distinction except in the sense of Islam & Hinduism's acknowledgement of Jesus as prophet or a guru/yogi. 

Peace & Light, Walker

Actually, Walker, Sri Prabhupadha Bhaktivedanta (the founder of the Hari Krishnas) identified Jesus as an incarnation of Krishna. The quote is in his book "The Science of Self Realization". He did so on the basis that the Greek word Christos has a Sanskrit root, which is (((Surprise!))) Krsna!!! So the one that we call Christ is in Sanskrit called Krsna (or, in some dialects, Krsta).
Gives more than a little weight to the  Jesus-Yogi hypothesis, IMHO! 

Some of my Ancestors were from the Punjab, which probably explains my pantheistic leanings. The Indians are such beautiful, peace loving people and I totally relate to them! I don't think I'll ever become a Sikh, or a Hari Krishna though, because for me a vegetarian diet is dangerous (I wound up in hospital for three days once with acute anaemia through not eating enough red meat). I was a very ill lady and got a stern talking to from the Doc. I think Krishna understands.

What life I do take to eat is honoured, though. We have a halal slaughterhouse in our town and my meat comes from there.  Even my dogs eat kangaroo meat that is culled as a part of a sustainable management program (SMP). Thus, their dogfood helps to keep the Great Mother balanced. They're healthier, too! Their breath doesn't smell!

[Syrbal]

 The Indians are such beautiful, peace loving people and I totally relate to them! I don't think I'll ever become a Sikh, or a Hari Krishna though, because for me a vegetarian diet is dangerous (I wound up in hospital for three days once with acute anaemia through not eating enough red meat). I was a very ill lady and got a stern talking to from the Doc. I think Krishna understands.

Did you perhaps mean Hindu instead of Sikh?  Because the Sikhs that I have known are not vegetarian at all.  I learned a lot of Indian (Mughal style) cooking from one of them as a matter of fact, and there was plenty of red meat being used, as well as chicken. 

[Walker]

Actually, Walker, Sri Prabhupadha Bhaktivedanta (the founder of the Hari Krishnas) identified Jesus as an incarnation of Krishna. The quote is in his book "The Science of Self Realization". He did so on the basis that the Greek word Christos has a Sanskrit root, which is (((Surprise!))) Krsna!!! So the one that we call Christ is in Sanskrit called Krsna (or, in some dialects, Krsta).
Gives more than a little weight to the  Jesus-Yogi hypothesis, IMHO! 

Thanks for that, I haven't read any of the Hari Krishnas material but I will now.  An interesting book along those lines is "The Wisdom of Jesus and the Yoga Siddhas" by Marshall Govindan.  It breaks out what might be referred to as 'definitive Jesus' from Paulanity and political/religious agenda then compares the quintesential Jesus with the classic Yogic teachings.

Peace and Light, David

[guineith]

Did you perhaps mean Hindu instead of Sikh?  Because the Sikhs that I have known are not vegetarian at all.  I learned a lot of Indian (Mughal style) cooking from one of them as a matter of fact, and there was plenty of red meat being used, as well as chicken. 

Actually, I think you are right. My mistake. I still wouldn't become a sikh, though, because although they believe that all humans are created equal, it seems to me that in their eyes, male humans are a little bit more equal than the female ones. As I am female, this would be a problem.
I could be wrong here too, mind you. I definitely do relate to their panentheistic view of God.

[Syrbal]

Actually, I think you are right. My mistake. I still wouldn't become a sikh, though, because although they believe that all humans are created equal, it seems to me that in their eyes, male humans are a little bit more equal than the female ones. As I am female, this would be a problem.
I could be wrong here too, mind you. I definitely do relate to their panentheistic view of God.

Well, the patriarchal attitude is rife across the Asian continent to be honest...not only with the Sikh religion.  I didn't find them particularly panentheistic however...Sikhism struck me as a synthesis of Hindu beliefs and Muslim doctrine in many ways.

[Kat667]

There are life rights within some magickal Orders for things like Baptism, Baby naming, marriage etc. Difference is that they do not belong to patriarchal old-aeon churches such as the Roman Catholic or Protestant or Muslim religions do.
I read an interesting book on The Power of Evocation, in which, the author who had been brought up a Roman Catholic, kept aspects of that faith in his magickal work and used it without the Catholic clergy realising what he was really up to, a case of keep your enemies close! Point being, it's like onion peelings, it's all a part of what you are if you were raised in a certain faith then use aspects of it in magick, be it Jewish (Kabbalah), Catholic (Heptameron) or Protestant (Crowley's grimoires). Maybe magicikians have to be prepared to face extremes, if something doesn't scare the wits out of you on some level, then you ain't doin' it right!

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