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Author Topic: Is this a Pagan  (Read 10590 times)
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« Reply #15: March 22, 2007, 08:13:35 am »

Yes most of them are lumped together and considered of the same religion, although if you follow a very eclectic fringe tradition, a Gardnerian or Alexandrian might not consider you Wiccan anymore.
Many BTWs* consider only BTW to be Wicca.  That doesn't mean they think the rest of us are "not real" or anything, just that they think what we're doing is different from what they do, and they wish we'd find another name for it.

That's a very short explanation of a very large topic.  You can learn lots more about it by checking the 2006 and 2005 archives (there are several threads, which shouldn't be too hard to find - the most informative ones have lots of posts in them), or just wait until the subject comes up again.  It does so regularly.

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*British Traditional Wicca(n) - as well as Gardnerian and Alexandrian, that includes Mohsian and the Central Valley Wicca trads; different folks have different places where they draw the line, but those trads are almost always included, while others are more debated.
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« Reply #16: March 22, 2007, 08:18:51 am »

Ok, a little more refined question.

Within Wiccan philosophy, there are those that tend to focus on different things, some are Earthy, some are more New Age, some more into Magic... etc.

Do each of these have a general category within them, a name for instance, or are they just lumped into the same cauldron (I couldn't resist!) and called Wiccan?


Depends who you ask. Smiley

To a strict traditionalist, either it's Wicca or it isn't.  And there's not a lot of room for variation until you get to "isn't".

To some other people, anything involving a God and Goddess (or maybe even just Goddess) is Wiccan.  I've even heard of atheistic Wiccans (which makes my head hurt).

So it really depends on how you look at it and who you ask.
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« Reply #17: March 22, 2007, 01:20:39 pm »


To some other people, anything involving a God and Goddess (or maybe even just Goddess) is Wiccan. 

which  is why I get called Wiccan as often as I do... would I call myself that? No.... would btw or even most trads of Wiccan call me that? No... lol

*shrugs* whatever - it doesn't bother me, they can call me whatever they want and it doesn't change what/who I am Wink

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To a strict traditionalist, either it's Wicca or it isn't.
Well darn you Shadow, I just realised I'm a traditionalist on that point.... at least in my own head since as far as I'm concerned you can call yourself whatever you want .... I don't have the time or inclination to argue the point with someone, I just... hmmm... i guess what I mean is that's just the way *I* view it. But since it's my opinion I'm not about to expect someone else to agree with it.
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« Reply #18: September 30, 2010, 10:30:59 pm »

I believe you are asking about traditions of Wicca?
Yes most of them are lumped together and considered of the same religion, although if you follow a very eclectic fringe tradition, a Gardnerian or Alexandrian might not consider you Wiccan anymore.

You know I could never understand why everyone, but Gardnenian and Alexandrian, aren't Wiccans. Both of them sound like privet clubs for the rich. Sorry if I'm insulting anyone.
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« Reply #19: September 30, 2010, 11:05:00 pm »

You know I could never understand why everyone, but Gardnenian and Alexandrian, aren't Wiccans. Both of them sound like privet clubs for the rich. Sorry if I'm insulting anyone.

It comes down to the question of who gets to define the use of a term. Most Gardnerians and Alexandrians accept that other people use the term Wicca in different ways. That said, a *lot* of those ways make things way more confusing than they would be if we were all more precise in our terms. (Not just the Gardnerians and Alexandrians.)

In terms of it being a private club for the rich - hardly, based on the Gards and Alexandrians and other trad folks I've known. But it is a priesthood path for very specific deities - and that comes with commitments and some limits to make sure that people who make those commitments can benefit from them, not be torn apart by them.

Interestingly enough, I've seen *far* more by way of financial expectations from Neo-Wiccan groups than from basically any of the BTW trads. (I live in an area with a fair number of both, plus online conversations about it over the year, so I've got a reasonable sampling.)

You *do* need to be able to invest:

- time and energy in learning the tradition (which will mean figuring out some way to meet up regularly with a teacher and/or group. For some people, this is nearby. If you have to travel, it gets pricy, but that's the travel, not the group or tradition, per se. It'd be just as pricy to travel for a different interest, or a different type of group, so it seems unfair to blame that on a particular trad.)

- time and energy in developing your own personal practice. (Which may not be very feasible if you're constantly in crisis mode at home.) Generally, initiatory groups won't take a student who's in that kind of persistent trying to keep their head above water because it's just not a good fit for the intense focus of initial training. (Doesn't mean you need to be rich - does mean you should be in the step beyond constantly worrying where your next food is coming from, or whether you're getting evicted this month.)

- some amount in personal supplies and in the work of the group. However, both trads (and a number of others) forbid any kind of payment for teaching or initiation, and in many groups the only costs involved are direct materials you, yourself, are using. (i.e. you supply your own note paper, you write stuff on it, you take it home.)

Some groups alternate who contributes group supplies (candles, wine, bread, incense - the stuff that gets used up at ritual.) So, we're talking a quite small amount of money. (maybe $10 a month,  and there will be months you don't need to bring anything.) Compare this to Neo-Wiccan groups that charge dues of $10, $20, $50 a month - all of which I've seen pretty frequently, and more than that.

Some groups don't do that - I'm certainly of the opinion that other than the wine, I'd be using the same amount of candle, the same amount of incense for ritual by myself or with a group, bread is pennies when I make it (and the rest gets eaten that week), and the cost of a bottle of inexpensive wine (5-10$ range) once or twice a month wasn't going to break me. (And I thought that when my food budget for all my meals at home - work fed me lunch - was $20-25. )

Many more of the Neo-Wiccan trads are all about the shiny and special. The BTW trads tend to prefer quality materials (so they can be very specific about the construction, say, of an athame) - but they've got specific reasons for it, point people at affordable resources, or figure out ways to make the financial outlay work out okay (saving over time, or helping people make stuff, or barter of some kind.)

Likewise, a number of Neo-Wiccan groups get large enough that hosting the group requires some substantial outlay in space (people owning a larger home than they otherwise would, which limits other finances), or requires rentals (which can be quite costly.) BTW groups stay small, a size that fits in most people's living rooms. Even the tiny ones. (As the Bast fiction/mystery books by Rosemary Edghill point out, if you can do group ritual in a small NYC apartment, you can do it anywhere. Those books, is actually a really good example on the economic side: she and her covenmates are certainly not rich, though they do have full and varied lives.)

The trad folk I know mostly aim for 'stable income, at least some health insurance, at least something into savings' - because those are values that go well with being able to be a priest or priestess, honoring the Gods in specific ways, and passing on the teaching and support to group members and tradition mates. (It's hard to help others if you yourself are constantly in crisis, or always worried with where your next rent check or food is coming from.)

And yes, that's better off than a bunch of people in our country. But it's also not exactly 'rich'. Most of the folks I know are very much middle/working class: lots work in helping professions (education, libraries, health care of various kinds, low-to-midrange government work) that give some stability and reasonable benefits, but not necessarily much cash.  Very few are doctors, lawyers, high-paid educators, or high-end business, or other high pay jobs. There is a smattering of computer geeks and coders. That's partly because of some of the expectations of those jobs (it's hard to be a good priest/ess if you're working 80 weeks on call), partly because of ethics (some jobs are better for that than others), and partly sheer inclination: the people who are suited to make a lifelong commitment to specific deities tend to have other definitions of 'successful life' than money, income, or major professional prestige. 
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« Reply #20: October 01, 2010, 10:28:12 am »

In terms of it being a private club for the rich - hardly, based on the Gards and Alexandrians and other trad folks I've known. But it is a priesthood path for very specific deities - and that comes with commitments and some limits to make sure that people who make those commitments can benefit from them, not be torn apart by them.

I only said that because it feels that way. I was on a forum about three months ago and this woman told me, flat out, that because I wasn't Gard or Alexander that I wasn't a Wiccan and I wasn't a witch. She went on and on about how much of a loser I was (her words, not mine) and how I need to get my little fake Wicca a** back to church and leave the real magick to those that are real. She called me a fake, a moron, a idiot, and accused me of being gay. I hit abuse real quick and she got banned. However that left me with one very sour picture of both groups. It almost made me feel that these groups believe that their better than everyone else.

I've told this story to others and one said 'Well that was only one person's opinion. It's not the opinion of all." Of course three girls then got on there and said that the woman was right and that I'm the one that needs to get banned for getting her banned. They told me to get my little lesbo butt away from the 'real' witches and a few days later I couldn't get on. I e-mailed the owner and the owner said that several Gard and Alexanders had e-mailed him and told him flat out lies about some PM's that I sent to them.

I hardly ever use the PM part and so I told him 'Well I"ll just leave you to be around liars because the only reason they told you this is because they don't want non-Gard and Alexanders on the site. I then asked him to ask them to show proof that I had sent these so-called PM's. The owner replied back a couple days later and said that a ton of other people wanted to know where I was and that they had liked me. He told them that he had banned me because of the PM's and they got all upset.

To make a long story short I was invited back but I told the owner that I'm not going to get bullied by a bunch of people that think that their 'special.'
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« Reply #21: October 01, 2010, 10:41:22 am »

I've told this story to others and one said 'Well that was only one person's opinion. It's not the opinion of all." Of course three girls then got on there and said that the woman was right

Which makes it four people's opinion, then, but still not the opinion of all.  I think it's a shame that these people behaved that way; the Gards and Alexandrians I've known have been, for the most part, pretty reasonable people.  Of course there is a continuing struggle about who gets to define and use the term "Wiccan" (though I thought "witch" was less contentious), and that's a touchy issue to be aware of and know that you might run into issues with, but most of the people I've encountered arguing for more exclusive definitions have been able to do so without resorting to the sort of abuse you're describing.

I can understand how the experience would have colored your perception of the group, but I hope you'll be open to changing that in the future as you talk to BTWs who are capable of discussing this issue without letting their frustration over it get the better of them.  Which is most of them, in my experience.  Wink
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« Reply #22: October 01, 2010, 02:13:02 pm »

I only said that because it feels that way. I was on a forum about three months ago and this woman told me, flat out, that because I wasn't Gard or Alexander that I wasn't a Wiccan and I wasn't a witch.

As Star says: that's not the whole trad, that's people being jerks.

Now, there *are* some good reasons for talking about definitions. I actually tend to agree with the BTW folks that Wicca has some specific defining characteristics. I'm a priestess in an initiatory religious witchcraft tradition that's a lot closer to the BTW end of the scale - but I still prefer to say "initiatory religious witchcraft" rather than Wicca because I also think there's some important differences. (Or I say "More or less Wicca, but with some differences in the details" when talking to people outside the Pagan community.)

But there are ways to hold those opinions about those definitions and not be a jerk about it. Certainly, it's not cool to be nasty to you about totally different things.

Reasonable people also understand that "Wicca" and "witch" are two different things. Twenty years ago, thirty years ago, people used the words a lot more interchangably - but most folks who are around the community now realise (and are really clear) that you can be a witch, and you can be a *religious* witch, without being Wiccan, and that there's a bunch of other varieties of practice and path out there.

One thing you should also know: I have *no* idea if it's the case in this situation - but there are people out there who claim to be Gardnerians and Alexandrians - and *aren't*. They're often some of the nastier people about defending the name - in other words, they're especially nasty about defending a claim to something they aren't themselves. I have no way, based on the information you've shared here, to know if that might be part of what's going on, but it's a weird enough reaction that I sort of wonder. (If you want to PM me with the forum/etc. I can take a look, but I might not turn up anything there.)

Do know that the experience you had is not universal - the Gards and Alexandrians I know in person, and the ones I've read a lot from online (on the Amber and Jet list, which is a seeker-focused BTW trad list, plus a bunch of other places) are just as appalled by that kind of nastiness and offensiveness. They might point out that a particular practice is not what they do, or that, say, reading a book by Gardner does not make you Gardnerian. But they'll generally explain, not insult. (Pretty much like here, actually: people will be clear, but being nasty is not allowed.)
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« Reply #23: October 01, 2010, 04:28:19 pm »

I only said that because it feels that way. I was on a forum about three months ago and this woman told me, flat out, that because I wasn't Gard or Alexander that I wasn't a Wiccan and I wasn't a witch. She went on and on about how much of a loser I was (her words, not mine) and how I need to get my little fake Wicca a** back to church and leave the real magick to those that are real.

I don't hear much of this crap any more. It used to be very common in the 1960s and 1970s when BTWs were trying to claim the work "witch" as exclusively theirs. As you can tell, the attempt failed miserably. They even lost control of the word "wicca" in the process (as people fed up with arguing with them over whether or not they were "witches" started using the term "wiccan" to describe what they were.

Few BTWs try to claim the word "witch" is exclusive to BTWs any more. If you are still in touch with these folks, invite them over here to make their case. I haven't got to tear the arguments for this position to shreds for years now.
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« Reply #24: October 01, 2010, 05:40:27 pm »

I don't hear much of this crap any more. It used to be very common in the 1960s and 1970s when BTWs were trying to claim the work "witch" as exclusively theirs. As you can tell, the attempt failed miserably. They even lost control of the word "wicca" in the process (as people fed up with arguing with them over whether or not they were "witches" started using the term "wiccan" to describe what they were.

Few BTWs try to claim the word "witch" is exclusive to BTWs any more. If you are still in touch with these folks, invite them over here to make their case. I haven't got to tear the arguments for this position to shreds for years now.

I'll bring popcorn and beer!
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« Reply #25: October 01, 2010, 05:47:08 pm »

I don't hear much of this crap any more. It used to be very common in the 1960s and 1970s when BTWs were trying to claim the work "witch" as exclusively theirs.

I guess they live in the past. I'll try and find the forum and tell them to come over. I would love to see someone shoot them down.
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« Reply #26: October 02, 2010, 12:25:21 am »

Few BTWs try to claim the word "witch" is exclusive to BTWs any more. If you are still in touch with these folks, invite them over here to make their case. I haven't got to tear the arguments for this position to shreds for years now.
<starts sharpening her arguments in anticipation>  I was one of those fed-up witches, so it's kinda personal for me.

I'm with Jenett in being suspicious of those folks' legitimacy.  IME, even those BTWs who claim "witch" is exclusively BTW don't do so with lies and gratuitous name-calling.  And the homophobic/lesbophobic slurs - orientation is not relevant to whether one can be BTW or not (and there are many, many gay and lesbian BTW), but a lot of people who aren't BTW think BTW is heterosexual-only.  I have trouble imagining an actual BTW behaving that way, but find it quite easy to picture a Fraudnerian or Alexinot (snarky nicknames for those who make false trad claims) using their false claim as a justification for their homophobia.

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« Reply #27: October 02, 2010, 08:33:55 am »

I'm with Jenett in being suspicious of those folks' legitimacy.  IME, even those BTWs who claim "witch" is exclusively BTW don't do so with lies and gratuitous name-calling.

There was actually quite a bit of "gratuitous name-calling" by some BTWs over this issue in the late 60s and early 70s. Certainly not all BTWS from that era, but more than they'd probably like to remember.

Quote
And the homophobic/lesbophobic slurs - orientation is not relevant to whether one can be BTW or not (and there are many, many gay and lesbian BTW), but a lot of people who aren't BTW think BTW is heterosexual-only.

There was some of this back then as I recall. Some BTWs back then were homophobic.
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« Reply #28: October 02, 2010, 11:22:16 am »

There was actually quite a bit of "gratuitous name-calling" by some BTWs over this issue in the late 60s and early 70s. Certainly not all BTWS from that era, but more than they'd probably like to remember.

There was some of this back then as I recall. Some BTWs back then were homophobic.
<nod> Oh, yes, indeed - I wasn't around for the really nasty bits of the Witch Wars, but I didn't get to be so savvy about neoPagan-movement history by reading only the glossed-over accounts written long after (there was a while in there where I really wondered about my taste for ancient nasty gossip - but then I realized how much better of a sense I had of why some things had developed as they did).

And, I'd say that it was more than just "some" BTWs, depending how far back you go; the BTW of the '50s and '60s very much reflected the mainstream attitudes of the times, which saw homosexuality as either dangerous deviance or mental illness (or both).  The first gay and lesbian folks who were called to BTW had to fight like the dickens to find teachers willing to train them.

These days, IME, both homophobia and name-calling are pretty widely unacceptable among BTWs, and I think would generally be considered to be "not the actions of a Proper Person" - not that BTWs are always models of civility, but mostly the worst they can be accused of is being curt with the ignorant; even the very few I've encountered who engage in bullying behavior do so much more subtly than what TradWitch encountered.  That certainly doesn't prove that the ones she met aren't BTW (just because I don't see BTWs who behave that way on Amber & Jet doesn't mean BTWs who behave that way don't exist; it means that BTWs who engage in open homophobia and/or tell people who might be seekers to "go back to church" aren't welcome on a seeker-oriented list whose moderators aren't all heterosexual), but that sort of thing is strongly discouraged in BTW culture, so it makes me wonder.

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« Reply #29: October 29, 2010, 12:16:37 am »

You know I could never understand why everyone, but Gardnenian and Alexandrian, aren't Wiccans. Both of them sound like privet clubs for the rich. Sorry if I'm insulting anyone.

Arghhhhh. . . this is where my head starts spinning. . . and also why I am still considering myself "pagan-undecided".  Undecided
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