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Author Topic: Parent/Child relationship/respect in Paganism  (Read 10101 times)
hyacinthine
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« Topic Start: November 11, 2007, 02:01:24 pm »

Briefly in another thread, I saw somebody stating that it is not okay to lie to one's parents about one's religion. This reminds me of something that has largely bothered me about many Pagan discussions I have witnessed.

Due to the fact that my parent's actions caused me to end up in foster care, I am certain I'm rather biased - but the whole "Your parents deserve (insert anything other than 'the respect they've earned' here) because they managed to breed" bothers me. I agree that many, possibly most, parents have earned a lot more respect than that which their children give them. However, religion is a private thing which does not require being told or explained to ANYONE, let alone a person that will judge and attempt to control said religion - whether or not that person is a parent. A lie to an owner - and a parent owns a child's body (not soul) unless they beat or molest said child, at which point the state owns the child's body - is not the same as a lie to a partner, friend, or kin-minus-ownership.

A long time ago, I memorized this bit of The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran. It easily and eloquently explains my feelings on the topic at hand:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.


What are your views on the relationship between child and parent as mandated by your spiritual beliefs?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 02:04:07 pm by hyacinthine » Logged

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« Reply #1: November 11, 2007, 02:31:55 pm »

Briefly in another thread, I saw somebody stating that it is not okay to lie to one's parents about one's religion. This reminds me of something that has largely bothered me about many Pagan discussions I have witnessed.

Due to the fact that my parent's actions caused me to end up in foster care, I am certain I'm rather biased - but the whole "Your parents deserve (insert anything other than 'the respect they've earned' here) because they managed to breed" bothers me. I agree that many, possibly most, parents have earned a lot more respect than that which their children give them. However, religion is a private thing which does not require being told or explained to ANYONE, let alone a person that will judge and attempt to control said religion - whether or not that person is a parent. A lie to an owner - and a parent owns a child's body (not soul) unless they beat or molest said child, at which point the state owns the child's body - is not the same as a lie to a partner, friend, or kin-minus-ownership.

A long time ago, I memorized this bit of The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran. It easily and eloquently explains my feelings on the topic at hand:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.


What are your views on the relationship between child and parent as mandated by your spiritual beliefs?

As mandated by my spiritual beliefs, I, as a parent, should not do anything on purpose that will result in my children ending up in foster care (presuming there isn't someone out to get me who thinks my religion in and of itself is reason for removing my children from the home.) THere are things that can happen out of my control that will get DCFS involved, but I should do my best to avoid those if I can.

I believe the respect for your parents business is predicated on seminormal parents who are trying to do the best by you they can, not on parents who don't give a rip or who actively abuse you. And my experience by my parents is that they figured out anything I was lying about anyhow.  MAybe I just can't lie well.
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« Reply #2: November 11, 2007, 02:42:08 pm »


Well, as far as I'm concerned, "Parents" are the people that do the work and care for the child.  That is who deserves respect and honesty when at all possible.  When all works well, that is the bio-parents of the child.  But clearly, it doesn't always work well.

I don't think that parents that don't respect the child "deserve" respect.  I do think that honesty between the parent and the child, when possible and reasonable, is a good thing.  But I do think that parents can lose the right to be respected and loved by their children.  And that's a sad thing for everyone involved.
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« Reply #3: November 11, 2007, 02:49:00 pm »

However, religion is a private thing which does not require being told or explained to ANYONE, let alone a person that will judge and attempt to control said religion - whether or not that person is a parent.

I agree. I will not lie about my religion if questioned...that is my belief that if I am questioned directly about my religion I will answer as truthfully as possible. But I certainly don't volunteer information. And I don't think being a parent gives anyone a right to know, *especially* in cases where the parent will attempt to control a child's religion or even punish the child for their beliefs. Even if the parent flat out says "are you Pagan" or "are you a witch" I fully support lying if a "yes" will get you punished. NO ONE has the right to punish another for their beliefs, be they a parent or not.

A lie to an owner - and a parent owns a child's body (not soul) unless they beat or molest said child, at which point the state owns the child's body

I don't care WHAT the law says, no parent, nor any state, owns my body. I own my body, and that is final.
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« Reply #4: November 11, 2007, 02:49:14 pm »

Due to the fact that my parent's actions caused me to end up in foster care, I am certain I'm rather biased - but the whole "Your parents deserve (insert anything other than 'the respect they've earned' here) because they managed to breed" bothers me.

I don't know that I've ever seen anyone - at least not anyone who I would take seriously for more than five seconds - say that parents deserve respect for the mere act of contributing biological material.  Frankly, I think any approach that reduces the parent-child bond to mere biology denigrates the relationship and simultaneously discounts those who adopt or foster children.

This is going to sound like a rather odd way of putting it, but I've always seen parenting as being somewhat akin to a feudal relationship (I was a Medieval History major, so shoot me) in that it is characterized by mutual rights, duties, and responsibilities.  The respect that ought to flow in both directions is the product of the mutual fulfillment and expression of those rights, duties, and responsibilities.  If the parent fails to fulfill their half of the bargain, the compact underlying the relationship is broken, and respect ceases to be due.

However, religion is a private thing which does not require being told or explained to ANYONE, let alone a person that will judge and attempt to control said religion - whether or not that person is a parent.

This is a very modern conception of religion, I think, and it certainly doesn't conform with my path, which defines faith as permeating all aspects of life and underpinning all relationships, knitting together clan and defining how one functions outside of the clan. 

A lie to an owner - and a parent owns a child's body (not soul) unless they beat or molest said child, at which point the state owns the child's body - is not the same as a lie to a partner, friend, or kin-minus-ownership.

If there is ownership, it is mutual, thought I don't think the "ownership" concept truly captures the reality of the relationship.

Also, the notion that lying to a parent is somehow less shameful than lying to a partner or friend is, to be more than a little blunt, something that I find to be more than a little repugnant. 
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« Reply #5: November 11, 2007, 03:50:56 pm »

Briefly in another thread, I saw somebody stating that it is not okay to lie to one's parents about one's religion. This reminds me of something that has largely bothered me about many Pagan discussions I have witnessed.

Due to the fact that my parent's actions caused me to end up in foster care, I am certain I'm rather biased - but the whole "Your parents deserve (insert anything other than 'the respect they've earned' here) because they managed to breed" bothers me. I agree that many, possibly most, parents have earned a lot more respect than that which their children give them. However, religion is a private thing which does not require being told or explained to ANYONE, let alone a person that will judge and attempt to control said religion - whether or not that person is a parent. A lie to an owner - and a parent owns a child's body (not soul) unless they beat or molest said child, at which point the state owns the child's body - is not the same as a lie to a partner, friend, or kin-minus-ownership.

A long time ago, I memorized this bit of The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran. It easily and eloquently explains my feelings on the topic at hand:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.


What are your views on the relationship between child and parent as mandated by your spiritual beliefs?

So long as I am responsible for a child's wellbeing, both physical and mental, and responsible for the consequences should they not be mentally or physically well, then yes, there is a debt of respect.  Period.  I will tolerate no less. 

Should my minor child run their car into a police station, I will be the one held responsible to pay for their damages.  I will be the one required to state that they will not leave town before they are brought to accountability for those actions - or rather, until I am brought to accountability for my childs actions and to whose custody they will be released.

So long as I cannot vouch for a given action being safe and unlikely to result in harm to themselves or others my children will not be participating in it.  This includes belief systems and group affiliations.  Until they are of an age where an error in their judgment will not be recorded by a regulating body as being due to a lack of parenting or supervision, that's just how it is.

As others have said, if a parent has demonstrated themselves to not be operating in the child's best interest - outside of disagreements in what constitutes appropriate and reasonable behavior; then they have forfeited their right to regulate said child's actions, since they are not being held responsible to behave as parents.

Long story short, whomever takes care of, supports and is responsible for you, does in fact deserve your respect.  Anything less shows badly on you rather than them.
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« Reply #6: November 11, 2007, 03:51:03 pm »

What are your views on the relationship between child and parent as mandated by your spiritual beliefs?

It's an excellent question, although I am puzzled where you saw a thread where someone really said this, and was not challenged on it already.

As a parent, I have rights and responsibilities to my kids. As a legal guardian, I have the right to question my kids' actions, and restrict my kids' movements, if I believe they are doing things that are unsafe for them or anyone else. My dh and I have raised our kids as best as we can to be honest and open with us about what is going on with them, and I hope as they grow up that will continue. But I have no control over that, really, and I guess that is where the problem lies for many families. But a lot of this comes down to how we set limits with kids when they are very little, I think, and how we as parents set the tone for communication between parent and child. In families where there are no limits (or nothing but limits) there is often not very good communication, and a lot of the problems people run into with accepting their kids' (or their parents', for that matter) religious/spiritual beliefs, really boils down to an established ability to communicate honestly. That happens before children even start talking.

Now, as a child who grew up in a very unsafe, and often crazy home-I should have been in foster care, actually, at several points-I completely understand where you are coming from and your bias. And of course it is true that under those conditions, if you can't be honest with your parents or whoever, you have to do your best to keep your head down and your mouth shut if you can, and get out of there.
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« Reply #7: November 11, 2007, 04:02:58 pm »

This includes belief systems and group affiliations.  Until they are of an age where an error in their judgment will not be recorded by a regulating body as being due to a lack of parenting or supervision, that's just how it is.

I agree with you on the group affiliations. But the fact of the matter is, you CAN NOT control what your child believes. If they choose to believe in a certain god, or not believe in a certain god, you can not change that. You have not the power, nor the right.

You CAN and SHOULD control the actions that they might take because of these beliefs. For instance, if they believe that they are required to sacrifice a live cat every Saturday, you can and should say "no, you can't. You're just going to have to wait until you grow up and move out to sacrifice a live cat every Saturday." However, you can't stop them from believing that they are required to, should they happen to hold that (rather odd) belief. You can control the action, but not the belief.
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« Reply #8: November 11, 2007, 04:18:38 pm »

Briefly in another thread, I saw somebody stating that it is not okay to lie to one's parents about one's religion.

Was this in reference to SRW's Teen Witch book?  I haven't read it, but I believe there was a bit about telling your parents that you're working with "angels" instead of gods and goddesses that people took issue with.  In that case I'd agree that that's not really cool.  It's one thing to keep your beliefs from your parents; quite another thing to put up a statue of a pagan deity and say, "Oh, don't worry, that's just an angel."  If you can't put up a statue without upsetting your family, why not just keep it to yourself?
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« Reply #9: November 11, 2007, 04:22:18 pm »

You CAN and SHOULD control the actions that they might take because of these beliefs. For instance, if they believe that they are required to sacrifice a live cat every Saturday, you can and should say "no, you can't. You're just going to have to wait until you grow up and move out to sacrifice a live cat every Saturday." However, you can't stop them from believing that they are required to, should they happen to hold that (rather odd) belief.

I plan on regulating the action and addressing the belief.  Why one believes they must sacrifice a live cat every Saturday is something quite worth discussing, and I doubt they'll get a moment peace until they can at least give me a logical map as to how we got to the destination.

This of course has been a double edged sword.  When you ask your 5yo why they are taking cold water from the bathroom, (spilling all the way) to pour into the kitchen sink (which is running hot water) and they tell you they are 'putting out the hot water' one can't help but stop and admire the attempt at logic, but all the same an attempt has to be made to explain why behavior X doesn't necessarily remedy challenge Y.

Sometime the lack of life experience creates beliefs that are appropriate for the age, but inappropriate for application.  It sounds good, but if attempted, could result in massive disaster.  Foresight of disaster as a parent obligates you to preventative action on behalf of a child.  Even when they think you are stifling, intrusive and annoying.
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
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« Reply #10: November 11, 2007, 04:50:44 pm »

I plan on regulating the action and addressing the belief.  Why one believes they must sacrifice a live cat every Saturday is something quite worth discussing, and I doubt they'll get a moment peace until they can at least give me a logical map as to how we got to the destination.

True; you can discuss the belief to your heart's content. Of course, depending on the child in question and HOW they got to that belief, you may be unable to change the belief.

Sacrificing your neighbor's cat is of course a rather extreme example. If someone were to tell you that you were not *allowed* to believe in your Aztec goddess (my apologies, I forget which one) because the only true God was the God of the Bible, it wouldn't change your belief any, would it? Doesn't matter if they are your parent, or government. The only thing that would likely happen is you would start pretending that you don't believe anymore, but of course, you still would.
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« Reply #11: November 11, 2007, 05:06:41 pm »

True; you can discuss the belief to your heart's content. Of course, depending on the child in question and HOW they got to that belief, you may be unable to change the belief.

Sacrificing your neighbor's cat is of course a rather extreme example. If someone were to tell you that you were not *allowed* to believe in your Aztec goddess (my apologies, I forget which one) because the only true God was the God of the Bible, it wouldn't change your belief any, would it? Doesn't matter if they are your parent, or government. The only thing that would likely happen is you would start pretending that you don't believe anymore, but of course, you still would.

But the not giving them a moments peace should guarantee that they don't sacrifice a live cat every sun.

I can't regulate their beliefs, but we can certainly talk about them. 

My suggestion to a kid who lives with parents (guardian, foster parents whatever) who will not accept witchcraft is to not practice overtly until you move out.  You can read whatever you want not at home, but while your parents are supporting you, don't bring something they don't approve of into the house.  Just don't.  Especially if you will be punished for it.  BUt even if you aren't, it is their house.  THey are responsible for you.  UNtil you are responsible for yourself and taking care of yourself.  However, they cannot regulate what you think.  BUt if you don't want to argue or discuss what you specifically think with them, don't bring it up, and don't do anything that would bring it up.  Keep it private. 
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« Reply #12: November 11, 2007, 05:16:24 pm »

My suggestion to a kid who lives with parents (guardian, foster parents whatever) who will not accept witchcraft is to not practice overtly until you move out.  You can read whatever you want not at home, but while your parents are supporting you, don't bring something they don't approve of into the house.  Just don't.  Especially if you will be punished for it.  BUt even if you aren't, it is their house.  THey are responsible for you.  UNtil you are responsible for yourself and taking care of yourself.  However, they cannot regulate what you think.  BUt if you don't want to argue or discuss what you specifically think with them, don't bring it up, and don't do anything that would bring it up.  Keep it private. 

This is what I would do as well. My mother was pretty open about stuff and she was cool with pretty much everything. My father was just ignorant. He thought astral projection was a D&D thing and, because I didn't want to try to debate spiritual stuff with him, I let him think that. He jumped to that conclusion and I did not discourage him from it. It just wasn't worth the effort.

We might not like it, but a parent CAN control what their children do and do not do. But when they try to control what they THINK I start to have problems.
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« Reply #13: November 11, 2007, 05:55:32 pm »

We might not like it, but a parent CAN control what their children do and do not do. But when they try to control what they THINK I start to have problems.

Well said. A parent can, if they so choose, control the actions of their children to any extent they wish. But the beleifs they cannot change,ever, if their child beleives strongly enough. And besides that they have not the right to change their child's beleifs. 
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« Reply #14: November 11, 2007, 07:23:52 pm »

I never expected this many comments and so much insight.

Here are a few things I need to say in response to various people...

-Of course, I agree that a person owns his/her own body, but I believe that in a philosophical sort of way. Legally/functionally speaking, it often isn't so...

-I understand that human beings, especially inexperienced ones (for instance, kids) often need their actions watched over and partially controlled by another (for instance, a parent). Many parents take it too far, though - ie "My child must dance ballet even though she would rather play soccer" or "My child must assure me that she believes Jesus Christ is her saviour, and if she does not, I shall punish her until she does - because I am experienced enough to know she will go to Hell otherwise!" etc. But I don't think anyone is arguing that this point is not true.

-I do agree that one should not engage in something repugnant to a person in that person's own home - to an extent. A minor who wishes to paint a pentacle on his wall and perform love spells with candles in his room is less understandable than one who wants to do a healing ceremony with meditation and music. If the latter still upsets the parent, I'd be rather inclined to say, "Then do it more quietly next time you try," to a minor, considering that the advice I'd give an adult - "Move out or deal" - would not work in such a case...

-I feel that truth is indeed the best option whenever possible, and that if truth about an action is not possible, said action probably shouldn't be happening. Only "probably" shouldn't be happening though. It does depend on context. Example: My mother forbade me to do any witchcraft when I still lived with her, and yet I did a discrete spell to help me get over a boy who had dumped me. It greatly helped my emotional state and productivity in school; I don't feel that I acted incorrectly.

And to BeachGlass specifically: Yes, that's the thread I was thinking of. Thanks for clearing that up. I think saying one is praying to angels instead of just keeping the entire issue to oneself is worthy of ridicule as well, so I'm glad to know that's exactly what was meant about Silver encouraging lying. I suppose I was being naive in thinking she must have been encouraging the path of least resistance (ie going to church and saying the prayers, etc. even while believing something).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 11:23:15 am by hyacinthine » Logged

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