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Author Topic: Parent/Child relationship/respect in Paganism  (Read 13821 times)
rose
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« Reply #30: November 12, 2007, 05:19:04 pm »

I don't feel that any harm would come to my by her prayers. I trust the gods I work with to take care of me, in that regard.

I am glad you feel that way. What I have been told by some of my friends is that being around someone who is actively sending energy at you that essentially denies and negates who you are feels really bad, when you are not energetically protected. In fact, some people I know came to witchcraft and energy work b/c they needed to protect themselves in this regard.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/

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Mandi
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« Reply #31: November 12, 2007, 05:27:56 pm »

Of course they don't do it for that reason, but the reason doesn't take away from the fact that it's quite easy to be incidentally cruel.

What scares me more are those who are unwilling to actively parent for fear of being perceived as "cruel" or "unfair" which are relative perceptions directly affected by how persuaded a child is that they will die if they don't get their own way.

As it pertains to Paganism in particular this is something I see as a bit of an epidemic.  Those who are more concerned about a child's happiness, and being a friend, in the name of keeping "open communication" although if a child doesn't respect a parent as a regulating authority, 'open communication' will be limited to what maintains the status quo of being permitted to do as they please.
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
Mandi
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« Reply #32: November 12, 2007, 05:30:59 pm »

Did your gay friends burst into flames or something?

Well where do you think they got the term flamer from?!  Grin 
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
Mandi
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« Reply #33: November 12, 2007, 05:37:49 pm »

Most people I have known who don't have children have a hard time understanding that, unless they have done some pretty extensive work, internally. It is very very hard work to be a parent, and lots of people are just not up to it. We do are best, and sometimes that is not good enough. For me, understanding that was key to getting to forgiveness, with my parents. And I found I couldn't go forward in a lot of areas until I got there.

I think one of the hardest things about becoming a parent is forgiving your parents for being only human.  Realizing that they were just as clueless as you are, (there is no moment of epiphany at which you just know what to do.  You are essentially the person you were the day before, the week before, the month before and the year before having a kid, going, oh shit, what now? - and every new thing your kid does to confound and disturb your life has to be dealt with as if it were mint and original, since it's the first time YOU'VE dealt with it.) and that they did their best with the resources they had - which sometimes didn't allow for all of the things that as a kid you WANTED, but were often in the name of making sure you had what you needed.
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
rose
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« Reply #34: November 12, 2007, 05:44:14 pm »

As it pertains to Paganism in particular this is something I see as a bit of an epidemic.  Those who are more concerned about a child's happiness, and being a friend, in the name of keeping "open communication" although if a child doesn't respect a parent as a regulating authority, 'open communication' will be limited to what maintains the status quo of being permitted to do as they please.

ita. I cannot tell you how many "family friendly" circles I've attended only to find that actually meant "kids are doing whatever the hell they want".
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
RandallS
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« Reply #35: November 12, 2007, 05:53:33 pm »

Did your gay friends burst into flames or something?

That must be some pretty powerful praying. If pray could do that, Pat Robertson would have had some liberal Supreme Court justices bursting into flame, I'm sure.
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Mari
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« Reply #36: November 12, 2007, 08:20:50 pm »

ita. I cannot tell you how many "family friendly" circles I've attended only to find that actually meant "kids are doing whatever the hell they want".

One of my biggest pet peeves.
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« Reply #37: November 12, 2007, 10:05:32 pm »

What scares me more are those who are unwilling to actively parent for fear of being perceived as "cruel" or "unfair" which are relative perceptions directly affected by how persuaded a child is that they will die if they don't get their own way.

Gods, yes!  Out of the children who are raised in that kind of atmosphere, well, some turn out okay in spite of everything, some end up turning into insufferable little snots, and some end up in the criminal justice system.
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Three things from which never to be moved: one's Oaths, one's Gods, and the Truth. The three highest causes of the true human are: Truth, Honor, and Duty. Three candles that illuminate every darkness: Truth, Nature, and Knowledge.
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« Reply #38: November 12, 2007, 10:16:58 pm »

I think one of the hardest things about becoming a parent is forgiving your parents for being only human.  Realizing that they were just as clueless as you are, (there is no moment of epiphany at which you just know what to do.  You are essentially the person you were the day before, the week before, the month before and the year before having a kid, going, oh shit, what now? - and every new thing your kid does to confound and disturb your life has to be dealt with as if it were mint and original, since it's the first time YOU'VE dealt with it.) and that they did their best with the resources they had - which sometimes didn't allow for all of the things that as a kid you WANTED, but were often in the name of making sure you had what you needed.

My Mom actually did a pretty darn good job with me, especially given the obstacles she faced, but she wasn't perfect - not even close - and for a long time I harbored a lot of resentments for the things that she had screwed up.  Resentments that were made less when she told me, when I was around 25, that she knew she had messed up some things with me.  But our relationship - as close as it's always been - didn't really heal until after I had kids of my own.

My daughter is very much like me.  She looks more like her Dad, but personality-wise, well, we're almost mirror images.  So, I rapidly got a whole new appreciation for what my Mom dealt with when I was a kid.

I cannot even begin to tell you how often we had the following conversation:

Me:  "Dear gods, Mom, you will not believe what the Imp did today.  <insert description of latest antics>"

Mom:  "You know, Armagh, you used to do the same thing at that age, only you would <insert my personal variation on the theme here>"

Me:  "Shit, Mom, how on earth did you ever have the patience necessary for me to survive to hit 18?"
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Three things from which never to be moved: one's Oaths, one's Gods, and the Truth. The three highest causes of the true human are: Truth, Honor, and Duty. Three candles that illuminate every darkness: Truth, Nature, and Knowledge.
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
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« Reply #39: November 13, 2007, 07:37:09 am »

I cannot even begin to tell you how often we had the following conversation:

*laughs* I've had that conversation with my mom! Cheesy
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Mandi
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« Reply #40: November 13, 2007, 07:46:08 am »

*laughs* I've had that conversation with my mom! Cheesy

I wont give my mom the satisfaction...

Then again I'm often left asking myself, WHERE WAS MY MOM!?  How is it that I remember doing all this stuff - terrible stuff even, but didn't get caught.  Five year olds should not know that crushed aspirin mixed with mercurochrome strips paint - or that there's skullcap in the cabinet - although I assumed skullcap was quite literally the top of someones head.

I think she was on the phone, as far as I can remember.  This was before cordless phones were widely owned, so when she was on the phone I had free run of the house, (and took full advantage) and she could only go as far as the spiral leash.

I do have discussions along those lines with hubbs when he asks where in the world our kids would get the idea to (fill in the blank), or that something is what it is not.
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
mandrina
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« Reply #41: November 13, 2007, 07:59:27 am »

ita. I cannot tell you how many "family friendly" circles I've attended only to find that actually meant "kids are doing whatever the hell they want".

And it isn't just pagans.

At my youngest's preschool, the church housed a Presbyterian church, a nonreligious preschool that shared the Sunday school rooms on weekday mornings, and a Korean church.  We found out the hard way that the Korean Church's idea of childcare for their evening services meant leaving younger teens in charge of the small ones and no cleanup.  It also meant that the Preschool teachers had to keep track of when the Korean church had evening things and show up a hour early the next day to cleanup the mess.
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Star
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« Reply #42: November 13, 2007, 10:01:29 am »

and that they did their best with the resources they had - which sometimes didn't allow for all of the things that as a kid you WANTED, but were often in the name of making sure you had what you needed.

Reminds me of a monologue from the play that Dad just wrapped up directing for the civic theater.  One of the characters is an elderly gentleman who came to America in his mid-teens.  His grandson asks him about this at one point in the play, and we get the whole story.  (Major paraphrasing going on here because I don't have the script in front of me.)

Back in his hometown, on Christmas morning all these vendors came out with cartloads of toys, and he and his father would go out and look at them.  And at every cart, he'd point at the biggest and brightest toy, and his father would shake his head and point at some dull little toy.  And it would go on and on like that until the last cart, where his father would finally buy him some dark little toy he barely wanted.  He says he really resented his father for that.  Then when he was 14 his father gave him 200 lira and the address of a cousin in Hoboken, NJ (who turned out not to even live there anymore, so he was homeless for a bit until he could earn some money) and sent him off to America.  And he hated his father for that too.

His father died not long after in a fishing accident, and eight years later he returned to Italy to show his new family to his mother and sisters.  He took his daughter out on Christmas morning to those very same vendors and every big, bright, beautiful toy she pointed at, he bought.  When they came back to the house, his mother took one look and told him that his father had always wanted to do that, but he couldn't because they'd barely had money for food on Christmas.  That this was why his father had sent him away, to make for himself a life in America that his father couldn't make for him in Italy.  It was at that point that the character realized something.  (And this is close to the exact line, though again I don't have the script in front of me.)  He'd thought his father was a miserable bastard who never gave him anything, but in fact he'd given him all he had.

Made me want to bawl.  Anyway, the point is...  Yeah.  Some people are lucky to have the resources to give their kids what they want and what they need.  The rest of us do what we can with what we have and hope that our kids will understand someday, even if they don't right now.  And (bringing it back around to the topic) sometimes, for some parents, that means setting restrictions about practicing religion that we feel are in the child's best interest, even if the child doesn't feel the same way.

I think most of what I'd say on the topic has already been said, though, so I'll just try to summarize quickly.  I feel like it's a parent's responsibility to take care of their child and keep their child safe as best they can, and I feel like it's reasonable that they expect their child to give them accurate information--i.e. not to lie--so that they can do that job as well as possible.  I have a hard time condemning most parents who want their kids to not practice certain religions because I think mostly they do honestly believe that they're just keeping their child safe, even if I disagree about whether Paganism is something they really need to keep their child safe from.  Which, btw, is a more complex topic in and of itself.  But all of this is predicated, as Mandrina said, on the assumption of relatively "normal" parents who are not abusive, overly controlling, etc., etc. and really do have their kids' best interests at heart--obviously the situation changes if that is not true.

Whether Paganism is something they need to keep their kid safe from:  I do feel like making big religious decisions like conversion requires a certain amount of maturity, and I don't feel like just because a child is capable of recognizing that other choices exist necessarily means that they're ready to make that choice.  I also feel like there are issues with some aspects of some Pagan religions not necessarily being age-appropriate for, say, a young teen or preteen to be investigating.  Which is not to say that the child in question can never, ever stray from the religious path set for them, but I can easily see myself trying to get my daughter to throttle back a bit if I felt like she was getting in over her head, and I can just as easily see her interpreting that as repression even though that's not how I mean it.
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« Reply #43: November 13, 2007, 10:03:39 am »

What scares me more are those who are unwilling to actively parent for fear of being perceived as "cruel" or "unfair" which are relative perceptions directly affected by how persuaded a child is that they will die if they don't get their own way.

Thank You.
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Star
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« Reply #44: November 13, 2007, 10:18:29 am »

I don't think I've seen this point made yet, but I may be wrong; forgive me if I'm repeating, please.

What are your views on the relationship between child and parent as mandated by your spiritual beliefs?

Aside from what I just said in my unintentionally-long-winded post, I wanted to directly address the "is it OK to lie to your parents" question.

Here's the thing.  Respect goes both ways.  If a teen wants respect from their parents, they have to be prepared to give respect back, and that includes not lying.  That the lie is about religion is, in my book, irrelevant.  It doesn't matter whether it's religion or boys or staying out late or having done your homework.  It's a lie.

Of course, that said, it does go both ways.  The parents are required to give respect, too, if they want respect from their teen.  (That doesn't necessarily mean letting the teen do whatever they want, though; see my previous post.)  If the parent chooses to be disrespectful of the teen rather than returning their respect...  Well, that doesn't give the teen a free pass to lie to their parents exactly, but it could make it more understandable.  I mean, I don't feel like lying is OK in general, but if it's lie about your religious beliefs or subject yourself to abuse, then...  sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils.

Specifically speaking to the $RW quote, though, just because I acknowledge that sometimes lying is the lesser of two evils doesn't mean I want "Mama Silver" encouraging my kids to do it.
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-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.

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