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Author Topic: Any good books on medicine wheel and Native American shamanism out there?  (Read 14126 times)
rose
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« Reply #30: November 17, 2007, 08:56:27 pm »

Again, just because person A believes something doesn't make it true for person B lol.... but it doesn't make it untrue either. lol Life is so funny like that.
Yes. Even when I disagree with another person or don't understand their pov, it doesn't make them right and me wrong, or vice versa. Life is too short to get bogged down in that level of polarized arguing, I have found. This is why I don't pay a whole lot of attention to people saying something is "fluffy" or "new agey" or whatever. I don't think it limits my ability to have a conversation about anything if I refuse to be drawn into using derogatory labels.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/

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« Reply #31: November 18, 2007, 04:58:25 am »

Yes, harsh words.  And if the mods want to delete this, I'll take the hit with good grace.

Harsh words aren't against the rules.  Indeed, I see no rule breaking at all in your post.  However, you appear unclear as to what the rules at The Cauldron are.  You're not in any trouble, but I suggest you take a brief look, so you are familiar with what is expected.

http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=16.0

On a personal note, it's something of a pet peeve when people post something which they state they think *could* break the rules, without checking first.

To be explicit, this post is in no way a warning.
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« Reply #32: November 18, 2007, 08:51:32 am »

Yes. Even when I disagree with another person or don't understand their pov, it doesn't make them right and me wrong, or vice versa. Life is too short to get bogged down in that level of polarized arguing, I have found. This is why I don't pay a whole lot of attention to people saying something is "fluffy" or "new agey" or whatever. I don't think it limits my ability to have a conversation about anything if I refuse to be drawn into using derogatory labels.

I couldn't agree more.... actually, that sort of thing kinda gets up my nose lol.
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« Reply #33: November 18, 2007, 02:55:34 pm »

Yes. Even when I disagree with another person or don't understand their pov, it doesn't make them right and me wrong, or vice versa. Life is too short to get bogged down in that level of polarized arguing, I have found. This is why I don't pay a whole lot of attention to people saying something is "fluffy" or "new agey" or whatever. I don't think it limits my ability to have a conversation about anything if I refuse to be drawn into using derogatory labels.

I thought calling them "vaguely racist" was pretty darn derogatory, especially given the history of the relationship between Anglos and Native Americans.
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Three things from which never to be moved: one's Oaths, one's Gods, and the Truth. The three highest causes of the true human are: Truth, Honor, and Duty. Three candles that illuminate every darkness: Truth, Nature, and Knowledge.
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« Reply #34: November 18, 2007, 03:00:23 pm »

Harsh words aren't against the rules.  Indeed, I see no rule breaking at all in your post.  However, you appear unclear as to what the rules at The Cauldron are.  You're not in any trouble, but I suggest you take a brief look, so you are familiar with what is expected.

http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=16.0

On a personal note, it's something of a pet peeve when people post something which they state they think *could* break the rules, without checking first.

To be explicit, this post is in no way a warning.

I have read the rules, EF.  I figured I should be okay, based on what was stated in the rules, but with every set of rules, there are gray areas, especially when it comes to when it comes to the line between strong debate and ad hominem.  That was my concern, especially since I was on the old AOL Pagan Boards long enough to know exactly how fluid gray zones can be.

It's nice to see that the mods on TC don't appear to be quite as trigger happy as the ones back on the old AOL Pagan Boards.
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Three things from which never to be moved: one's Oaths, one's Gods, and the Truth. The three highest causes of the true human are: Truth, Honor, and Duty. Three candles that illuminate every darkness: Truth, Nature, and Knowledge.
rose
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« Reply #35: November 18, 2007, 05:27:08 pm »

I thought calling them "vaguely racist" was pretty darn derogatory, especially given the history of the relationship between Anglos and Native Americans.

hm, I think that is an oversimplification of a pretty humongous subject. You might want to start another thread, if you really want to have conversation about it.

However, I think it is important to note that racism is way more than a derogatory label. I don't hesitate to call stuff as I see it, but I do not call names. I guess I find these things to be in separate categories. To me, if you post a bunch of stuff on your site that denigrates other peoples' claims to NA heritage, you are skating on thin ice. It is one thing to bust people who are claiming to be what they are not and making money off of other people with their lies, quite another to say someone is less NA than you  b/c they are not full blood whatever, which seemed to be inferred at several points. There were also some people on the list who were taken to task b/c they *included NA ideas and traditions in their stuff. They seemed to denigrate other varieties of shamanic tradition, if they were taken together with NA traditions ( or maybe just b/c they were different traditions? that was not clear to me at all). To me, this is eclectic-it's not trying to rip anyone off, it's just inclusive. I realize some people don't like that, but that hardly makes it wrong for everyone else that does.

Also, as Entwife noted, many many people are called to NA traditions for lots of reasons (me included). I wouldn't dream of telling other people that I know jack about anyone else's tradition or heritage, but that doesn't make my experience of it less valid or powerful, to my way of thinking.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
RandallS
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« Reply #36: November 18, 2007, 05:46:58 pm »

It's nice to see that the mods on TC don't appear to be quite as trigger happy as the ones back on the old AOL Pagan Boards.

Not here -- at least not on most things. AOL boards in general were too "make nice and pretend to get along" for me.
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« Reply #37: November 18, 2007, 10:33:08 pm »

Not here -- at least not on most things. AOL boards in general were too "make nice and pretend to get along" for me.

They got that way.  Back in '96 when I first logged on, it was a lot more rambunctious place, with some extremely vigorous intellectual interchange - as well as some phenomenal opportunities for learning.  Over time, TOS was enforced with increasing arbitrariness, the boards were increasingly invaded by folks who placed being nice over truth, and a lot of us old regs started migrating.  This is actually the first set of boards I've found since then that gave me hope that there was still room for real discussion in the online Pagan community.
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« Reply #38: November 18, 2007, 10:35:19 pm »

This is actually the first set of boards I've found since then that gave me hope that there was still room for real discussion in the online Pagan community.

The fact that we not only allow, but encourage, real discussion and debate is one of the things that sets TC apart from many Pagan boards. It's also one of the reasons many Pagans don't like us much.
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rose
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« Reply #39: November 18, 2007, 10:40:35 pm »

Back in '96 when I first logged on, it was a lot more rambunctious place, with some extremely vigorous intellectual interchange - as well as some phenomenal opportunities for learning.  Over time, TOS was enforced with increasing arbitrariness, the boards were increasingly invaded by folks who placed being nice over truth, and a lot of us old regs started migrating.

yes...back in the olden days, my mommy board started on AOL. We were there for years, and had some bodacious fights, learned a ton from eachother, hated eachother, loved eachother...it was very wonderful. We had terrific mods, though, too, who knew when and how to tell people to cool off and back down. But eventually we got really tired of trolls coming in and telling us all we were going to hell, or if we would just spank our kids they would act right, and then the mods changed and no real arguing was allowed at all, so we went private.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
Armagh444
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« Reply #40: November 18, 2007, 10:49:16 pm »

hm, I think that is an oversimplification of a pretty humongous subject.

Frankly, I think your comment was reductionist in the extreme as well, so there we are.

Look, Rose, I'm sure you're a good person, and I'm sure you mean well, but I don't see in your comments anything that would indicate an understanding of exactly how difficult and painful it is for many (if not most) in the various Native American communities to see their sacred traditions appropriated and mixed into some sort of goulash by Anglos.  The problem of Plastic Shamans is one of the biggest issues in Indian County and for good reason.  Native Americans have been victims of cultural genocide for over two centuries now, and continue to be so victimized.  Do you have any idea how many Native American languages have died out?  Do you realize that they are continuing to die out at a frightening rate?  Are you aware of the effect on a culture when the language is gone?

Many of these cultures are dying.  Many are hanging on to viability by their fingernails.  Is it any wonder that so many Native Americans get angry when they see pieces of their culture being stolen (and that is how many of them see it) by the very people who are carrying out this genocide? 

Calling that sort of justifiable anger "vaguely racist" is more than simple calling it like you see it.

You might want to start another thread, if you really want to have conversation about it.

If the moderators want me to move this to a new thread, I would be happy to do so.  For the moment, I'm treating it as normal thread drift.

To me, this is eclectic-it's not trying to rip anyone off, it's just inclusive. I realize some people don't like that, but that hardly makes it wrong for everyone else that does.

I think the peoples whose cultures are being appropriated have more right than the appropriator to make the determination regarding whether an action is "rip[ping] anyone off."

Also, as Entwife noted, many many people are called to NA traditions for lots of reasons (me included). I wouldn't dream of telling other people that I know jack about anyone else's tradition or heritage, but that doesn't make my experience of it less valid or powerful, to my way of thinking.

I don't think your experiences are invalid.  Calling your practices Native American is not valid unless they are being practiced in a Native American cultural context.  Native American sacred traditions are generally too interwoven in the larger cultures for them to retain their Native American character if they are removed from that culture.
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rose
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« Reply #41: November 18, 2007, 11:19:53 pm »

Look, Rose, I'm sure you're a good person, and I'm sure you mean well, but I don't see in your comments anything that would indicate an understanding of exactly how difficult and painful it is for many (if not most) in the various Native American communities to see their sacred traditions appropriated and mixed into some sort of goulash by Anglos.  The problem of Plastic Shamans is one of the biggest issues in Indian County and for good reason.  Native Americans have been victims of cultural genocide for over two centuries now, and continue to be so victimized.  Do you have any idea how many Native American languages have died out?  Do you realize that they are continuing to die out at a frightening rate?  Are you aware of the effect on a culture when the language is gone?

I think this is extremely condescending, and yes actually I do know a bit about the subject, but hey, rock out and have your justifiable anger, if it is what you really want. It does seem to ignore the larger point that many people find a lot of connection b/w the various threads of shaman traditions, and just b/c a non NA person is drawn to NA (or Hindu, or ancient Egyptian or Greek, or Celtic, etc.) traditions for *whatever reason* does not automatically make them colonial co-opters or plastic, or whatever.

I stand by my contention in my other post that many of the sites and people listed on the page were largely about 1) putting down eclecticism and other people's traditions and 2) calling other people not NA when said folks claimed they were, which to me is indeed a dicey and often racist tactic. The fact that so much of the original NA culture across the continent is gone makes it seem counterproductive to me to deny people what they believe to be their heritage, or tell them they are doing it wrong, b/c someone more "pure" says so. Telling people they are not what they say they are is just bullshit, unless you can for a fact prove that they are lying for the purposes of making money. And in most cases on that page, this was not at all clear, to me.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #42: November 18, 2007, 11:24:10 pm »

I think this is extremely condescending, and yes actually I do know a bit about the subject, but hey, rock out and have your justifiable anger, if it is what you really want. It does seem to ignore the larger point that many people find a lot of connection b/w the various threads of shaman traditions, and just b/c a non NA person is drawn to NA (or Hindu, or ancient Egyptian or Greek, or Celtic, etc.) traditions for *whatever reason* does not automatically make them colonial co-opters or plastic, or whatever.

I stand by my contention in my other post that many of the sites and people listed on the page were largely about 1) putting down eclecticism and other people's traditions and 2) calling other people not NA when said folks claimed they were, which to me is indeed a dicey and often racist tactic. The fact that so much of the original NA culture across the continent is gone makes it seem counterproductive to me to deny people what they believe to be their heritage, or tell them they are doing it wrong, b/c someone more "pure" says so. Telling people they are not what they say they are is just bullshit, unless you can for a fact prove that they are lying for the purposes of making money. And in most cases on that page, this was not at all clear, to me.

Rose,

What Armagh is saying is actually a very common position. Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, many of the First Nations people absolutely loathe the co-opting of their culture/beliefs into modern neo-Pagan systems. And many of them are going to be upfront and blunt about it. I know, I've run into a group of them who were downright nasty even though they knew I had zip interest in their religion.

This is a hot topic. Always has been.
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Armagh444
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« Reply #43: November 18, 2007, 11:44:14 pm »

I think this is extremely condescending, and yes actually I do know a bit about the subject, but hey, rock out and have your justifiable anger, if it is what you really want.

Point one, I am not angry.  I don't know you personally, and you have no power over me similar to that of - for example - the President, so I'm not going to waste my time and energy getting angry.  What I am is blunt and plain-spoken.  If you choose to see that as anger, that's your choice.

Point two, you say you know "a bit" about the subject.  Does your knowledge come from members of the various Native American tribes?  Have you ever discussed this issue with a tribal member?

It does seem to ignore the larger point that many people find a lot of connection b/w the various threads of shaman traditions, and just b/c a non NA person is drawn to NA (or Hindu, or ancient Egyptian or Greek, or Celtic, etc.) traditions for *whatever reason* does not automatically make them colonial co-opters or plastic, or whatever.

Ancient Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, and Norse traditions are irrelevant to the discussion, as those ancient cultures are effectively dead.  There is no living culture to appropriate from. 

I stand by my contention in my other post that many of the sites and people listed on the page were largely about 1) putting down eclecticism and other people's traditions and 2) calling other people not NA when said folks claimed they were, which to me is indeed a dicey and often racist tactic. The fact that so much of the original NA culture across the continent is gone makes it seem counterproductive to me to deny people what they believe to be their heritage, or tell them they are doing it wrong, b/c someone more "pure" says so. Telling people they are not what they say they are is just bullshit, unless you can for a fact prove that they are lying for the purposes of making money. And in most cases on that page, this was not at all clear, to me.

And yet, you don't seem willing to even consider that there might be valid reasons for that sort of reaction.
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rose
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« Reply #44: November 18, 2007, 11:52:02 pm »

Point one, I am not angry.  I don't know you personally, and you have no power over me similar to that of - for example - the President, so I'm not going to waste my time and energy getting angry.  What I am is blunt and plain-spoken.  If you choose to see that as anger, that's your choice.

Point two, you say you know "a bit" about the subject.  Does your knowledge come from members of the various Native American tribes?  Have you ever discussed this issue with a tribal member?

Condescending in the extreme. Yes, I have. But never mind. I don't think it is a topic worth getting into further, as LF pointed out.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/

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