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Author Topic: Sharing information and knowledge  (Read 10433 times)
Cent
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« Reply #15: November 28, 2007, 11:08:16 am »

I guess the thing is...  I'm just not interested in trying to work through a bunch of mental contortions to try to divine someone's meaning from the "energy" behind their posts or whatever.  (And in fact I think it's dangerous to rely on that "energy" to convey your meaning, since not everyone will get it.)  I'll make an attempt if something seems outrageously off, on the theory that I surely must be misreading it, but...  It's not my job, IMHO, to read someone else's mind and try to guess what they mean.  It's the responsibility of the person writing the post to be clear.  I also don't feel, regarding your PM reply, like understanding the dangers of plain-text communication makes me an "ancient".  It just means I've got some experience with the Net, that's all.  I don't understand why all the mysticism surrounding all this.
Perhaps, though, I'm just not your intended audience.

Though I feel I’m not mental contorting, I would agree some may see it as a waste of time and energy… or whatever, not interested in this type of honing skills.
Reading my mind is not why I started this thread.
Dangerous to rely on that “energy” to convey. It can be, but also how many will rely on their interpretation of said energy as well. Which can also be seen as dangerous.
Straight forward I was that it was done intentionally.
Straight forward I was from the beginning that this was a game of interpretation.
Not a mind game to confuse others, put others on the spot, or waste my time.

In regards to my PM to you, I did not call you an ancient because of your reply in this thread. I assumed the position of influence you were given as Senior staff indicated that you were of higher learning. On most boards, those that are part of running a pagan board are not part, just because they are friends or are good with running the software.

If there is no interest in a targeting game to hone skills, to be seen as a fun way rather than a structured book learning exercise, then, agreed, you’re not my intended audience.
Though it is not an audience I seek.

b/c it makes everything more fun and interesting? But not for everyone of course.

Yes Rose that was my intent on the format setup.
But than you would see this right off. You know I Remote View and use “Guessing Games” to ease the fear and frustration of missing a target. *not my fear or frust.*
I enjoy a more relaxed and fun targeting session, since I am a long time member of a RV board that is strictly scientifically based. More like work with no fun or front loading.
*here is your target number, identify the image* Great for honing skills but not as much fun.

If I were to hold something in my hand and in a game format asked others to Guess/target what it is, it would be yet another game for honing skills.
This thread is not about targeting an image or what is in my hand, but the same skills can be used and applied to Reading into a post.

I have to agree with Star on this one. Mysteries and enigmas have their place, but I'm not sure that a forum post is necessarily the best place for them.   It's an incredible waste of  time and energy  sifting through a convoluted or mysterious posting to get at the writer's original meaning, intent, or energy.    The beauty of the English language is that it can quite easily be used to express intent.  It's as simple as typing the statement: "Hey everybody, I'm posting this because (insert reason/intent here)."  Now how hard is that?   Wink  
Aisling, you see this as mysteries and enigmas and have no place in a message board.
A waste of time and energy. Perhaps, but I don’t see it as time and energy wasted or I wouldn’t be wasting mine.

If I am wrong you would think, those that run this board would tell me to cut it out.
It doesn’t belong here. I would comply. If asked to wrap this up and close the thread, I would do that too. If PMed by those running the board questioned… what the heck are you doing? I would answer.

None of which has happened. One can only Assume that it’s okay even though this thread has caused irritation.

Agreed language is easy to use to express intent, not hard at all. Especially with the emotioncoms and Internet expressions.
Some Do have a problem expressing,  I don’t feel I have this problem *in all other threads* and when misinterpreted I am quick to apologize for the confusion and clear the air.

Could that perhaps be because they read the original post, say "WTF is that about?" and move on to something that was more clearly written and easier to decipher?  Wink  

There's a great concept known as "writing to your audience", in which one writes at a comprehension level that the intended audience can readily understand and in such a way that the audience is interested in the material.  You've failed (perhaps intentionally) to write to an audience of novices.  Novices are most likely going to be looking for basic how-to and what-if discussions in clear, easy to understand language.  They aren't going to be interested in wading through an enigmatic post when their minds are grappling with basic spirituality questions.

As for labelling everyone as either a novice or teacher/ancient/elder, what is the reasoning behind doing this?  It seems to me that you're failing to recognize (again, perhaps intentionally) that there is a broad spectrum of experience, not just these two polar extremes.   I cannot claim to be a sage or wise woman when it comes to spirituality, but I certainly am not a novice either.  I think that's probably true of the majority of people on this forum.  So why insist on grouping people as such?

WTF is that about? And move on. I would disagree as to the cause of non-reply’s..
I’ve not failed to write to a intended audience of Novices. Those are not my words.
I simply asked of those of higher learning Elders/Ancients/Teachers to … in other words not spoil the guessing game, the opportunity for others.

I feel this has nothing to do with spirituality and is purely a different form/exercise of discussion set up in a Game format.

Grouping people, actually this manifested in a thread in the forum only Full Members can see. A divide was already there. I did not Label everyone as a novice or teacher with no in between. If fact I have no interest in labels or ranks and my beginning post in this thread showed the “levels”, from the beginning to working up to those of higher understandings.
Seems the words and thoughts of others are being blended into my words.
It is not I that insist on grouping/labeling people.

Also, there is experience in different things.  For example, I don't see how (for example) spending 20 years in the wilderness 'talking with spirits' would aid in reading the original post [or use other dramatic example to taste].

I agree EverFool, experience in different things.
Spending 20 years talking with spirits would only help if the spirits whispered in your ear to aid in Reading a post. *in this case*

I probably qualify as a teachers and/or an elder by many definitions. In spite of my experience (both in the Pagan community and in online message areas), I can't figure out what you are asking in your original post. Sorry, but it is hard to answer if you have no sure idea what is being asked.

You have heavy shields and I can't See past them. *sorry couldn't resist the obvious and voice it*
Knowing whether you are asking about what you've quoted me saying, or asking about my original post in this thread.

I will appoligised for "I find it interesting and wonder why those that are not teachers/ancients/elders or of less experience have not joined in."
That was sarcasium at it's finest. I have my own feeling/understandings to why.
Again, sorry for that.

As far as the original post, sharing info and know,  I asked a few questions about how it can be interpreted what intent is thought/felt to be there, making it known I had removed the words and emotioncons. The reason? Well makes the game harder and opens to disscussion just how it can be taken many ways.

Which it indeed has.

I have been asked, why in the world would I set up such a thread that left me open like that.

I explained how it happened *which I won't repeat here ... in case the game does move forward*
I will share that it was not me alone that caused it to manifest.

As I was typing what I thought would be a reply to another thread, in my ear was whispered, "remove emotion". I sat for a moment thinking, but that's not my way. I felt a preasurized feeling on the back on my right shoulder. *a known and familar* So I did. After re-reading it I said to myself. *this is off topic of the thread* Another whisper, "a new thread make it general". I copied and pasted, removing any names in the post, creating a new thread. As I went to click on the post button, another push but hard enough that the cursor moved and I missed the button when I clicked.

A flood came in and I started typing as it did. Trying to find words for what was being sent into my thoughts. *on the fly so to speak, which I have mentioned in this thread.*

After the rush stopped, I re-read it, somewhat unsure of posting it. I said, "are you sure? a kettle of worms it could open directly at me."
A whisper, "only a can". And another push. So I clicked, and she left.

I have always listened to her, she comes forward not very often. *or would that be, stand behind me to my right* In that... I have to trust in. Knowing that... when she pushes me like that, is never a straight flat road. Bumpy it can be, but I can only trust the reason is important for me.
A lesson? Training?... don't know but will find out. I opened the door fully aware.
*as my original post spoke of to One person, concerning how others may or may not react*

I've been called Odd, strange, wierd, *smiles* and a few nasty ones not worth mentioning.
Though someone called me a witch, to which I thanked them.
I don't find it upsetting when these types of negative is thrown my way.

I have not felt irritated or upset about how this thread has mainfested, or what has been said.
I've not felt the need to throw open my door and step out with attitude/knowledge/power.
I can only trust the light at the end of the tunnel is but a short distance... unless it's a fun ride.

A long post this is. *sigh* a lot of energy and time.
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« Reply #16: November 28, 2007, 11:40:26 am »

If I am wrong you would think, those that run this board would tell me to cut it out.
It doesn’t belong here. I would comply. If asked to wrap this up and close the thread, I would do that too. If PMed by those running the board questioned… what the heck are you doing? I would answer.

None of which has happened. One can only Assume that it’s okay even though this thread has caused irritation.

We don't do that here.  Unless something actually breaks the rules or duplicates something else, we don't close threads.

If this is how you want to post, you're welcome to do so - and people are welcome to respond as they see fit, within the rules.  Including telling you that they see no point to this thread, if that is what they wish to do.

For myself, I find my toddler makes more sense than what I see here.  So I haven't responded.  That doesn't make this thread against the rules - simply uninteresting to me.  If rules are broken, THEN the staff intervenes.  Not just because something doesn't make sense.

(as far as being staff because we're *advanced* .. we have an atheist and a Catholic theologian on staff.  advanced at what, exactly, are we supposed to be?)
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« Reply #17: November 28, 2007, 11:53:10 am »

I assumed the position of influence you were given as Senior staff indicated that you were of higher learning. On most boards, those that are part of running a pagan board are not part, just because they are friends or are good with running the software.

You'd have to ask the Hosts, but I hesitate to claim "higher learning" for myself.  I was very new to Paganism when I was first invited to staff and am still very new to my particular chosen path.  Experience with the forum and its rules, experience with the Net at large, a mindset compatible with the dominant forum culture, an interest in participating in this community and helping to constantly improve it--I suspect these have more to do with the reasons I was asked to be on staff, and none of them are exactly "higher learning".

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If I am wrong you would think, those that run this board would tell me to cut it out.
It doesn’t belong here. I would comply. If asked to wrap this up and close the thread, I would do that too. If PMed by those running the board questioned… what the heck are you doing? I would answer.

We don't close threads, generally, except in cases of pretty exact duplication (like the same news story posted two places, to name the most recent example), or very rarely some sort of announcement that does not require a reply.  Beyond that it really has to be very, very bad to be closed.  You haven't even broken any rules, that I've seen, much less gotten to "very, very bad".  We're not going to close the thread, or ask you to, just because your communication in this thread is less straightforward than some of us personally care to bother with.

(Or, what Shadow said while I was typing.  LOL)
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« Reply #18: November 28, 2007, 01:17:19 pm »

If I am wrong you would think, those that run this board would tell me to cut it out.
It doesn’t belong here. I would comply. If asked to wrap this up and close the thread, I would do that too. If PMed by those running the board questioned… what the heck are you doing? I would answer.

I was not trying to suggest that you are doing something wrong or violating forum guidelines, Cent.  If I had felt that you were doing this, it would have been addressed through the moderators, as it should be.  I was simply making the point that not everyone is interested in playing these kinds of mental guessing games. Not everyone finds convoluted posts beneficial or helpful.   

 
WTF is that about? And move on. I would disagree as to the cause of non-replys..
I've not failed to write to a intended audience of Novices. Those are not my words.
I simply asked of those of higher learning Elders/Ancients/Teachers to  in other words not spoil the guessing game, the opportunity for others.

What I was referring to had nothing to do with your request to the so-called elders; I believe that this was actually a part of your OP, not the post I quoted.   

My comment was referring to another post in which you pondered why the those with less experience were not responding to this thread and I suggested a possible reason.  Accept or reject that answer as you will, that's your choice. 

Grouping people, actually this manifested in a thread in the forum only Full Members can see. A divide was already there. I did not Label everyone as a novice or teacher with no in between. If fact I have no interest in labels or ranks and my beginning post in this thread showed the “levels”, from the beginning to working up to those of higher understandings.
Seems the words and thoughts of others are being blended into my words.
It is not I that insist on grouping/labeling people.

You have used the labels like elder, teacher, and ancient repeatedly in your posts from the start; those weren't labels that someone else added to the thread. This would very strongly suggest that you are either grouping/labeling people or expecting them to categorize themselves for purposes of this thread.

If you feel that everyone was already divided into categories by an existing thread, could you please provide a link to that thread? 
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« Reply #19: November 28, 2007, 02:20:49 pm »


Having watched the conversation grow for a bit, a few thoughts.

Reading between the lines online:
I think it's possible. I think it's also unreliable - even people who are generally *very* good at it can mess up sometimes, and sometimes drastically. In my book, it's an interesting thing to note, and use to refine your own skills, but it's bad form to rely on it for various reasons, particularly the question of audience.

Intention:
If I post something in a discussion forum, I should anticipate that people might discuss it. If I post something in my blog, I should expect people might comment. They may say stuff that bugs me. I should have a sane and mature way to deal with that. If I just want to go and lecture (or rant, or angst) I can post it on a static webpage or turn off commenting.

If I am getting comments, commentary, or questions that are bugging me, it is *my* job to figure out why. Very rarely, it means someone's being a jerk, a troll, or otherwise intentionally disruptive. Far more often, it either means I made a poor choice in phrasing/explaining myself, I have unexamined baggage about the issue, or we've hit some communication glitch. Backing up and figuring out which is productive.

More audience than just the 'reply to':
When I write posts, I'm obviously writing partly in reply to the person I quote, am responding to, etc. But if I'm writing *anywhere* other people can see (in other words, anything short of a one-on-one conversation) I'm also writing for all those other people who can read it. Some of them may post or comment (and I generally hope so!).

But I'm also writing for all those people out there who lurk.

Lurking is great. It is one of the ways I learn best: I'd be a hypocrite of the first order if I thought there was a problem with it. The discernment of learning when to post or ask something, and when to listen is also a valuable skill in my book (for anyone, but I think there's a particular applicability in mystery based religious traditions and communities.)

But since I can't tell what they're interested in, so I'm sometimes (ok, often) more expansive than I might be if I were responding solely to the individual who posted.

What's an elder, anyway? (or a teacher, ancient, etc.)
I'm a teacher in my tradition. I'm not an elder, per se, but I am now a senior member of the tradition I work in. I know a bunch of stuff about some things. People tell me I say useful things.

On the other hand, there's two problems with that.
1) I'm 32. There are tons of people out there who have *way* more experience than I do in *very* many areas. And it's not like I'm perfect or have all the answers, or anything.

2) That senior status? Oh so shiny new it isn't even a week old yet. I grew up on too many Greek myths to be blase about hubris. 

So I share what I can, and listen and ask questions about other things. Anyone and *everyone* else can and should do these things: it's just the proportions that may vary, depending on your familiarity with the topic.

Consentual play:
"Here, guess what I'm getting at" posts like the one I linked back to do make me uncomfortable. They make me uncomfortable not *just* because there's often a polarizing effect in it (as can be seen in some ways on this thread.) But I find them frustrating because I dislike being placed, unconsentually, on a metaphorical chessboard by someone else, with a theoretical role I should be playing. I know this happens in people's heads: this is what happens when we use words to identify particular kinds of knowledge, skill, and interaction.

But if you rub my attention in it, I'm likely to go off and do something else, and get on with my life. If it happens often enough, I will move requests from people who do that sort of thing down my priority list. This may not be a big individual loss (there's little in my head that's truly unique), but  if enough other people do the same thing, you end up with fewer potential responses, and fewer entry points in that particular community.

That doesn't mean that posts of this kind are always useless or bad - but that they should be used very carefully and thoughtfully, and written as clearly as humanly possible to avoid this problem. For example, I'd have responded differently about a post that positively phrased its audience desires (newcomers, say, as opposed to 'not elders'), that asked questions that framed intended discussion (as opposed to a longer essay-like format) and one that was more clear and less confusing about what it was trying to say (in the eyes of a number of people who have responded.)
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« Reply #20: November 28, 2007, 02:39:31 pm »


You have heavy shields and I can't See past them. *sorry couldn't resist the obvious and voice it*
Knowing whether you are asking about what you've quoted me saying, or asking about my original post in this thread.

Are you saying that you tried to read Randall's mind/energy [insert personal vocab] without permission?  Although I don't believe in such things, if I did, I'd have to say, I think that just sounds rather like magical hacking.
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« Reply #21: November 28, 2007, 02:44:49 pm »

b/c it makes everything more fun and interesting? But not for everyone of course.

Enh.  Psychic mystical communication is something I practice with my lover.  When I'm dorking around on teh intarwebs I'm looking for people who can use their words.
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« Reply #22: November 28, 2007, 02:48:13 pm »

Are you saying that you tried to read Randall's mind/energy [insert personal vocab] without permission?  Although I don't believe in such things, if I did, I'd have to say, I think that just sounds rather like magical hacking.

No EverFool, it was a pun of this Whole thread, and an acknowledgement he is a teacher.

I don't go around targeting people to read or view. *whether possible or not* I would ask permission.

Thought I'd better jump in and set that straight before the thread goes off in that direction.
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« Reply #23: November 28, 2007, 02:57:03 pm »

No EverFool, it was a pun of this Whole thread, and an acknowledgement he is a teacher.

I don't go around targeting people to read or view. *whether possible or not* I would ask permission.

Thought I'd better jump in and set that straight before the thread goes off in that direction.

*blinks* *rubs head* how is that a /pun/?
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« Reply #24: November 28, 2007, 03:14:33 pm »

Are you saying that you tried to read Randall's mind/energy [insert personal vocab] without permission?  Although I don't believe in such things, if I did, I'd have to say, I think that just sounds rather like magical hacking.

This could be a topic of its own actually.

I don't have any ethical problems with reading others' energy from their words. At least, not 'surface reading'. I see it as a way to know who I'm dealing with. Can I trust them? What is their intent towards me? I can pick up someone's intent fairly easily. Trust is not something I would base *purely* on an energy reading...but, I would not trust another completely without a little investigation in that arena.

I consider it impolite to look any deeper than that, without permission. Still, if I had a reason for doing it (for my own protection, or someone else's, for instance), I would do it, and not have any qualms about it. If I need to know, I need to know.

There is a big difference between mind reading, and energy reading. Mind reading implies (to me at least) getting the person's specific thoughts, and feelings, etc. Energy is just that. Energy. Everyone has their own unique energy sig or "fingerprint".
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« Reply #25: November 28, 2007, 07:34:09 pm »

You have heavy shields and I can't See past them. *sorry couldn't resist the obvious and voice it*

Well, yes, I have shields that many battleships would probably envy. Smiley
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« Reply #26: November 29, 2007, 10:53:16 am »

If you feel that everyone was already divided into categories by an existing thread, could you please provide a link to that thread? 

I wouldn't say everyone divided into categories, just a problem with being Tutored on such basic levels that it causes irritation. Would be like me going into my mothers kitchen and teaching her how to make a sandwich.

No, I don't want to link to that thread here, and join the two.

Having watched the conversation grow for a bit, a few thoughts.
What's an elder, anyway? (or a teacher, ancient, etc.)
I'm a teacher in my tradition. I'm not an elder, per se, but I am now a senior member of the tradition I work in. I know a bunch of stuff about some things. People tell me I say useful things.

Consentual play:
"Here, guess what I'm getting at" posts like the one I linked back to do make me uncomfortable. They make me uncomfortable not *just* because there's often a polarizing effect in it (as can be seen in some ways on this thread.) But I find them frustrating because I dislike being placed, unconsentually, on a metaphorical chessboard by someone else, with a theoretical role I should be playing. I know this happens in people's heads: this is what happens when we use words to identify particular kinds of knowledge, skill, and interaction.....

 For example, I'd have responded differently about a post that positively phrased its audience desires (newcomers, say, as opposed to 'not elders'), that asked questions that framed intended discussion (as opposed to a longer essay-like format) and one that was more clear and less confusing about what it was trying to say (in the eyes of a number of people who have responded.)

Ya Elder/Teacher/Ancient... can blend together. Why I type it like that rather than as seen as Seperate from each other. I see it more as an Elder can teach, as a Teacher an elder. Ancient seems more like.. a catch all for those that have old spirits/souls, or a gift that is strong. Often blending as well, with wisdom behind it.
"what happens when we use words to identify particular kinds of knowledge, skill, and interaction....."
Ya, hard to find the right words to identify.

Postive phrasing, yes agreed. It started out just the 2 people I've talked with directly, then I realised there are just to many Eld/Teach/Ancients *grins, to identify* on this board that may pickup the energy signature in my original post.

Though if I had said, all newcomers, level 1, 2's... or stages in learning, up to those of higher learning.
*smiles which I did after the fact in another post* The out come may have been, why are you excluding or are you saying we can't post. Hard to say if a postive phrasing would have caused a postive or negative.
*to late now* Undecided

*blinks* *rubs head* how is that a /pun/?

I felt Randall had done to his post *or similar* what I had done in my original post.
Exactly what the thread is/was about.

This could be a topic of its own actually.

I don't have any ethical problems with reading others' energy from their words. At least, not 'surface reading'. I see it as a way to know who I'm dealing with. Can I trust them? What is their intent towards me? I can pick up someone's intent fairly easily. Trust is not something I would base *purely* on an energy reading...but, I would not trust another completely without a little investigation in that arena.

I consider it impolite to look any deeper than that, without permission. Still, if I had a reason for doing it (for my own protection, or someone else's, for instance), I would do it, and not have any qualms about it. If I need to know, I need to know.

There is a big difference between mind reading, and energy reading. Mind reading implies (to me at least) getting the person's specific thoughts, and feelings, etc. Energy is just that. Energy. Everyone has their own unique energy sig or "fingerprint".

I believe along the same line as you.
To read energy that is already there in a post. *specially felt when someone talks from the heart or inner core*, is not prying. They put it there, they left it there.
Would be like asking a aura reader not to look at your aura.
Or one that sees spirits and you ask them not to look at the ones in your house.

To turn things on and off like that, would take a lot of control and energy I'm sure.
Often it doesn't work that way. Sometimes it may not be able to be shut down.

Well, yes, I have shields that many battleships would probably envy. Smiley

Battleship gray. Had a few curiousity thoughts about your post.
Whether it was your shield or you did it to the post.

I gave permission to Look into my post, and though the curiousity floats around it would be rude to sort/sense your post.
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Energy Follows Attention
sashapablo
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« Reply #27: November 29, 2007, 02:19:49 pm »

I felt Randall had done to his post *or similar* what I had done in my original post.
Exactly what the thread is/was about.

That's not a pun. A pun is a play on words, such as the following:

Archeologist: A man whose career lies in ruins

What happened to the butcher who backed into his meat grinder? He got a little behind in his work.

Sasha
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treekisser
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« Reply #28: November 30, 2007, 11:37:30 pm »

....
I realised there are just to many Eld/Teach/Ancients *grins, to identify* on this board that may pickup the energy signature in my original post.
....

I felt Randall had done to his post *or similar* what I had done in my original post.
....


I wonder about this whole 'energy signature' thing. I'm not denying it exists (I mean, we all get 'vibes' from people), but I wonder whether you're assigning too big a role to it in forum posts, and using the words Elder/Teacher/Ancient too readily.

There are perfectly mundane ways of reading intent. See, I'm not an E/T/A, and while I can't sense mystic energies (boy that would be COOL though  Grin) I do have some verbal/analytical skills. Randall, for example, almost never uses exclamation marks; doesn't seem to use semi-colons, em-dashes; uses minimal smileys, and never happy happy joy joy ones; tends to use simple and compound sentences of moderate length, no long posts, no fancy vocab, no profanity, no internet-speak, few abbreviations, etc. So his 'tone' is always very measured, emotionally neutral, authoritative, and in fact only seems to vary when he asks a question or is unsure about something.

None of that might be true of him in real life, but the point is you can read these things without recourse to 'energy signatures', so the people who do read them are not necessarily E/T/As. Maybe they do this kind of analysis subconsciously, which is why it can seem mystical, but it doesn't mean it is.
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« Reply #29: December 01, 2007, 06:22:14 am »



<applauds Treekisser>  You've been missed. Smiley
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