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Author Topic: Magicka School  (Read 23271 times)
Nyktipolos
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« Reply #15: December 28, 2007, 01:05:15 am »

Did Ya'll hear about the Magick school in Canada?

Here

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jan/06011809.html

Seems interesting, no?

I can't believe thats real. Shocked
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« Reply #16: December 28, 2007, 11:26:48 am »

I can't believe thats real. Shocked

I know, I heard about it a few years ago. I wonder how much it costs?

Some of the people I talked to about the school said that you won't make a living with a degree from there. *shrug* oh well.  Smiley

Modified to add: Look at this! I found the website. http://www.northernstarcollege.com/home.html
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« Reply #17: December 29, 2007, 08:54:00 am »

[edited to add]  If Starhawk is now Wiccan, that's news to me.  Trad Wiccans have taken some pains to distance themselves from Reclaiming in the past, and I assumed she was still part of the Reclaiming tradition.

Actually, only 3 out of the 38 footnotes refer to Hutton and for Starhawk and Wicca see: http://www.starhawk.org/

"Earth Magic joins her earlier Sounds True CDs: Wiccan Ritual and Beginners Guide to Wicca."

For what it's worth I too would recommend Hutton. A great book!
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« Reply #18: December 29, 2007, 12:30:33 pm »

Actually, only 3 out of the 38 footnotes refer to Hutton

I didn't say they referred to Hutton.  I said they were straight out of TotM.  They're basically the same references he used in his book.  Except that, ya know, they're from his book.

I stand by my assertion that one would be much better off just reading Hutton than taking this "course".  I've stated why I think it's pretty useless.  Can you tell me why you think it's not?

As for Starhawk, having a couple of CDs with "Wicca" in the title doesn't make her Wiccan.  I know she used to be involved with Covenant of the Goddess, but Reclaiming broke off from that in the 70s.  I think even those involved in Reclaiming wouldn't say it's Wicca.  I know we've got a couple around here.  I'm hoping they'll chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Brina
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« Reply #19: December 29, 2007, 12:44:21 pm »

I didn't say they referred to Hutton.  I said they were straight out of TotM.  They're basically the same references he used in his book.  Except that, ya know, they're from his book.

I stand by my assertion that one would be much better off just reading Hutton than taking this "course".  I've stated why I think it's pretty useless.  Can you tell me why you think it's not?

As for Starhawk, having a couple of CDs with "Wicca" in the title doesn't make her Wiccan.  I know she used to be involved with Covenant of the Goddess, but Reclaiming broke off from that in the 70s.  I think even those involved in Reclaiming wouldn't say it's Wicca.  I know we've got a couple around here.  I'm hoping they'll chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Brina

[edited to add]  I'll continue with the course and take the exams as they come up.  If it turns out the rest of it is better organized, clearer, and more useful, I'll come back and post about it.
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« Reply #20: December 29, 2007, 12:58:34 pm »

I agree the free courses sound very good. I checked the site out. The course is similar in format to the corellion school that used to be on the web which had a pretty good first year free course, in fact this may be an updated version. However with so many thyings online I would be very cautious about paying for anything. I am so frustrated with the information out there. a lot of what is put out there is only "what everybody knows about Wicca, or magic in general" within the first 3 months of study or reading of a book of Silver Ravenwolf, Scott Cunningham, or even *gasp* Laurie Cabbot. Silver actually has put out some very good reference works and Scott Cunningham is great for the beginner in the craft mind you. Silver's biggert problem is she doesn't "idiot proof" stuff that is geared for teens and I don't really think of her as Wiccan. She is a Pennsylvania Dutch witchcraft practitioner and that is not Wicca at all but a far older witchcraft traditon. (read Hexcraft one of her earlier books and she tells you that in black and white.)
The thing is once you put yourself in the public eye, you become controversial and everyone is out to debunk you as I know to my grief when I was an AD of MOCC and there are some who will never find anything you publish as good enough or adhering to what everybody knows enough which is possibly why I will never publish anything that recieves any readership outside of those few preist(esses) who now own a copy of the liturgy I printed at the insistence of my mentor while I was AD of the Tulsa area MOCC. And since it turned out that Druidic Wicca really isn't my niche I am now seeking training in other areas. Check out the credentials of any school of magic you seek training from, especially if you are forking out any monies. And be really careful about who you choose for a mentor........
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« Reply #21: December 29, 2007, 02:20:06 pm »

As for Starhawk, having a couple of CDs with "Wicca" in the title doesn't make her Wiccan.  I know she used to be involved with Covenant of the Goddess, but Reclaiming broke off from that in the 70s.  I think even those involved in Reclaiming wouldn't say it's Wicca.  I know we've got a couple around here.  I'm hoping they'll chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Starhawk's been around long enough to have some fallout from the early stuff Randall talks about occasionally, the whole "You can't be a witch unless you're Wiccan" thing that early people were on about.

Reclaiming is a Feri derivative, not a Wiccan derivative, nonetheless; I believe the only reference to Wicca in The Spiral Dance is in terms of 'other witches who do some similar stuff'.  Jenett (if she's about) can probably speak to some differences well, as I know she's been at a ritual that was dual-trad (her own Wiccan-derived witchcraft and Reclaiming) and how that was to navigate.
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« Reply #22: December 29, 2007, 03:03:34 pm »

I think even those involved in Reclaiming wouldn't say it's Wicca.  I know we've got a couple around here.  I'm hoping they'll chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.
M. Macha NightMare has an essay on the Reclaiming website on the subject.

Sunflower
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« Reply #23: December 29, 2007, 03:41:51 pm »

She is a Pennsylvania Dutch witchcraft practitioner and that is not Wicca at all but a far older witchcraft traditon. (read Hexcraft one of her earlier books and she tells you that in black and white.)
She may be that as well; I wouldn't know.  But she also comes from the Seax-Wicca-derived SerpentStone/Black Forest set of trads.  What I've heard/read of these folks isn't all that impressive, and many folks would argue that they're "not Wicca at all", but they're certainly Wicca-derived neoPagan religious witchcraft (i.e., what the word "Wicca" is often used to mean, when it's being used more broadly than just BTW).

I would certainly not consider any of SRW's Wicca/Witchcraft books to be "very good reference books".  Whether her other books, such as Hexcraft, do a better job of describing the practices they purport to be about, I'm not equipped to evaluate.

Sunflower
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« Reply #24: December 29, 2007, 04:08:07 pm »

Starhawk's been around long enough to have some fallout from the early stuff Randall talks about occasionally, the whole "You can't be a witch unless you're Wiccan" thing that early people were on about.
<nod> The "surviving strand of the Old Religion" bandwagon was one that everyone and hir familiar were hopping on, and to some extent had to hop on to have credibility as part of the neoPagan scene of the time.

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Reclaiming is a Feri derivative, not a Wiccan derivative, nonetheless; I believe the only reference to Wicca in The Spiral Dance is in terms of 'other witches who do some similar stuff'.
When I look in its index, I see one reference each to "Wicca" and "Wicce", in italics; it turns out to be essentially the same reference, to the gender-differentiated Anglo-Saxon words from which "witch" descends.

There is also one index reference to "Wiccan Witches".  This takes me to a couple of pages in the introduction, where she speaks of "When we finally met real Wiccan Witches..." with whom she trained for a time but didn't complete her study, and refers to what Z Budapest was teaching at the time as "a feminist tradition of Wicca".

Otherwise, Starhawk uses "Witch" and "Witchcraft" throughout the book, to refer not only to her own Feri background and Reclaiming practice, but to pretty much anything anyone was doing in that line, from the Stone Age to last week.

So, pretty much what you said, DH, with a bit more specific detail for the finicky.

Sunflower
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« Reply #25: December 31, 2007, 04:09:11 pm »

Silver actually has put out some very good reference works and Scott Cunningham is great for the beginner in the craft mind you. Silver's biggert problem is she doesn't "idiot proof" stuff that is geared for teens and I don't really think of her as Wiccan. She is a Pennsylvania Dutch witchcraft practitioner and that is not Wicca at all but a far older witchcraft traditon. (read Hexcraft one of her earlier books and she tells you that in black and white.)
I have her BOS for the new generation......for the solitary witch...just bought it the other day and i havre to tell you....it is AMAZING...I love it and i find so many usful things on there its crazy....
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« Reply #26: December 31, 2007, 11:30:35 pm »

Jenett (if she's about) can probably speak to some differences well, as I know she's been at a ritual that was dual-trad (her own Wiccan-derived witchcraft and Reclaiming) and how that was to navigate.

Jenett is now back from the family holiday visit Smiley

The ritual in question was the marriage (not legal, as MN is still stupid about gay marriage) of my HP to his partner, who's a senior teacher in Reclaiming. Among other things, they had people from four different communities important to them (of whom our lot were one: I was one of the two people doing this) call the quarters, so we had quarter calls in four quite different styles. (As it turned out, East and West were the more structured, South and North the less so.) (The other more structured one was another structured path my HP has done significant work with: the two less structured ones were Reclaiming and Earth Conclave, a regional ritual/retreat/festival sort of community.)

It was a remarkably cohesive ritual energetically (I think because we were all focused on the point of the exercise, which was them getting married and in us celebrating that), but I know that some of what we did caught various people off guard - and that some of how other people approached things made us blink. Not in a "I'm going to walk out of ritual" thing, but in a "Hmm. Wonder how that works."

I've had a lot of chances since then to talk approaches with my HP's husband since then - always fascinating - and he comes to most of our Sabbat rituals as a family thing, as well as doing a little work with a group working on a specific topic that was organised by someone active with Reclaiming (and done in shared space with some other Reclaiming activities, etc.)

It's clear there *are* differences. It's less clear how to talk about them, because a lot of it depends on being able to sort out definitions.  Some of the outward forms are quite similar - reference to four directions, work done in a circle, a polytheistic approach, more or less. On the other hand, there's no particular focus on polarity (or other types of balance in terms of the deities invited), the direction of a particular ritual can often be significantly altered by participants in it on the fly, and they have a very different take on some approaches to things like aspecting/Drawing Down. There's also, obviously, a very different take on group and community structure and how decisions get made from traditional Wiccan groups.

(I have some very strong personal opinions about some of these, which I'm trying to keep out of this discussion.)

I very much *like* a lot of the Reclaiming folks I've met: I would happily show up to help many of them in an emergency, I enjoy talking to them, and we can have wide-ranging discussions. But there are also a lot of places where I've hit mutual puzzlement: we're using similar words to mean very different things, or have very different desires for the outcome of a ritual. I think, overall, it's a good thing for the Pagan community as a whole, but the Reclaiming folks I know don't describe themselves as Wiccan (and generally have quite specific reasons for not doing so, too.)

Macha Nightmare's essay, on the Reclaiming site, highlights some other aspects of identity and word choice, too. http://www.reclaiming.org/about/witchfaq/witch-word.html - if you go to the 'about' link at the top, you'll find some other relevant stuff, too.

(On the 'some of Starhawk's books using the word' - authors often don't have a lot of say over titles. Also, since one of the aspects of Reclaiming is that it's a community and consensus based culture, the actions of a single individual, no matter how influential, are not the sole factor in a community decision: I'm far more inclined to take the reclaiming.org pages seriously on terminology, because they've been come from sources widely distributed and discussed within Reclaiming.)
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« Reply #27: January 01, 2008, 01:57:52 am »

She may be that as well; I wouldn't know.  But she also comes from the Seax-Wicca-derived SerpentStone/Black Forest set of trads.  What I've heard/read of these folks isn't all that impressive, and many folks would argue that they're "not Wicca at all", but they're certainly Wicca-derived neoPagan religious witchcraft (i.e., what the word "Wicca" is often used to mean, when it's being used more broadly than just BTW).

I wondered where that Black Forest stuff came from; thanks!

I would certainly not consider any of SRW's Wicca/Witchcraft books to be "very good reference books".  Whether her other books, such as Hexcraft, do a better job of describing the practices they purport to be about, I'm not equipped to evaluate.

I have fairly low opinion of $RW's work, as well.  Aside from the usual ethical problems, Hexcraft is infuriating.

Part of it is represented as original research she did in the old folks' homes and long term care facilities in her part of Pennsylvania Dutch country.  I agree with her assertion that those old folks were an amazing resource of that purely American sort of magic, and it is sad that the only one who thought to collect it was $RW.

Why is that?  Because she doesn't take it seriously.  She reports all the wonderful work one can do with this essentially Christian folk magic, and then claims that all you have to do is substitute a different god-name into the rhyme and it'll all work just as well as pagan magic.

Hello.  Have some respect for the material.  Those people entrusted that to her at the end of their lives, hoping she would preserve it.  She even claims to have had a teacher in the Art, and I believe she refrained from publishing until after he had died, because he didn't want the material published, once again showing her lack of ethics. 

And what does she say in the book?  That the Christian terminology, and the repeated use of the White Paternoster and the use of crosses and other Christian symbols by a thoroughly Christian people, is all just an accretion on top of Ye Anciente Pagan Magick, and advises the reader to just toss all the Christian silliness and substitute the good pagan stuff she taught you in her other books, and it'll all work just fine.

Hohmann would be turning over in his grave.

I acquired a photocopy of an old copy of Long Lost Friend a few years ago; I should compare it to Hexcraft and see how much correspondence I get.  My guess would be not much.

The book is easily available at amazon.com:

Long Lost Friend

...and Hohmann is much more trustworthy than $RW.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 08:41:11 am by RandallS, Reason: Amazon Link changed to shorter TC version » Logged

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« Reply #28: January 01, 2008, 08:38:40 am »

Why is that?  Because she doesn't take it seriously.  She reports all the wonderful work one can do with this essentially Christian folk magic, and then claims that all you have to do is substitute a different god-name into the rhyme and it'll all work just as well as pagan magic.

This was highly annoying. I would have much rather seen the original material that just her revised "Wicca-Lite" versions. And her attempt to rewrite the history of the type of magick to give it a "Wiccanized Pagan" original was throughly annoying.  However, there was still a quick a bit of useful info in the book (at least compared to many of her other books). This is one of the few $RW books I refer to at all.


Quote
....and advises the reader to just toss all the Christian silliness and substitute the good pagan stuff she taught you in her other books, and it'll all work just fine.

It will wiork just fine -- its just no longer Pow-Wow as it has always been practiced -- its a similar but different system.  Something that seems lost on Ravenwolf.

Quote
I acquired a photocopy of an old copy of Long Lost Friend a few years ago; I should compare it to Hexcraft and see how much correspondence I get.  My guess would be not much.

The book is easily available at amazon.com:

It's also available on the web as a PDF:

http://think-aboutit.com/pdf/powow.pdf
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« Reply #29: January 01, 2008, 11:27:33 am »

This was highly annoying. I would have much rather seen the original material that just her revised "Wicca-Lite" versions. And her attempt to rewrite the history of the type of magick to give it a "Wiccanized Pagan" original was throughly annoying.  However, there was still a quick a bit of useful info in the book (at least compared to many of her other books). This is one of the few $RW books I refer to at all.


It will wiork just fine -- its just no longer Pow-Wow as it has always been practiced -- its a similar but different system.  Something that seems lost on Ravenwolf.

It's also available on the web as a PDF:

http://think-aboutit.com/pdf/powow.pdf


Oh, that's nice. 
And thanks for fixing my amazon link.  Smiley  HNY
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