The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
May 29, 2020, 12:27:06 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 29, 2020, 12:27:06 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 17   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: How is Feminism Viewed in Pagan Religions?  (Read 32379 times)
Jessica A
Journeyman
***
Last Login:January 08, 2008, 02:00:25 pm
United States United States

Religion: Roman Catholic whos starting on her Pagan Path
Posts: 100


Pretty much live by my own rules, not society ones

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Topic Start: January 05, 2008, 12:02:54 pm »

I'm sorta one, but I'm not that crazy about how its viewed in general.

Love your views on this.

Thank you, in advance.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 05:39:53 pm by RandallS, Reason: Subject made a question » Logged

"Live, Laugh, etc"

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Dania
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 17, 2008, 08:11:47 pm
United States United States

Religion: Gwyddon Seeker
Posts: 2895


Queen of Hare-Brained Schemes

Blog entries (4)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1: January 05, 2008, 12:20:55 pm »

Love your views on this.

Firstly, I am not a feminist. I DO believe in equality between the sexes where applicable. I do also realize that in certain things, one gender may do better, simply because of the way our bodies are structured, and the way our minds work.

There are some things that women seem to be able to excel at, that men cannot (except in rare cases). There are some things that men seem to be able to excel at, that women cannot (except in rare cases). And I don't see anything wrong with this.

The problem I have with modern feminism is twofold: one, a lot of feminists seem to view men as "lesser" than they are...and in attempting to "escape the dominance of the evil patriarchy" they in turn discriminate against men. And two, the modern standpoint seems to be "we can do anything that men can do, just as well as men can do it, and we should be attempting to prove that to the world at every turn."

What I think SHOULD happen, is that instead of "proving that we are as good as/better than men at everything men do" we should be playing to our particular strengths as women!! We need to be good at and embrace what WOMEN do...instead of trying to force ourselves into a sort of "reverse stereotype".

I'm not fond of the modern Pagan Feminist viewpoints that, often times, preach equality of the sexes and then seem to exclude men. It strikes me as "I'm more equal than you" which is...paradoxical at best. I'm not fond of "equal" groups who worship the Goddess almost exclusively while completely ignoring the God...in the name of "female equality".

So no, I'm not a feminist. And neither is my religion. Actually, I worship and work with more male deities than female...my statue of Jupiter is central on my altar.

And to confuse things further, I'm a warrior type and I am a CNC operator in a machine shop. I guess I'm just confusing all around. Wink (but if anything, my experiences working in shops has shown me that I CAN do strong creative type work...but it has also shown me that men have their own natural abilities for that sort of work: arm strength being the main advantage. Grin)
Logged


Caomi_Brannon
Master Member
****
Last Login:September 09, 2010, 11:46:07 am
United States United States

Religion: Leanaí Laochra: Eireannach Tradition
Posts: 430


I write, therefore I live.

Blog entries (1)

amma.dennis


Ignore
« Reply #2: January 05, 2008, 12:58:46 pm »

Love your views on this.

My views on this?

I hate it.

Let me explain why. Demeaning or demoralizing any human being for any reason is downright wrong. 90% of the feminists I know demoralize men at every turn. There is absolutely nothing right about making someone feel small or bad about themselves. I realize that not all feminists do this, but I feel it's a lot like communism: a good if done properly, but not a lot of people can pull it off.

Not all women can do everything a man can the same way a man can just as well or better. No, they can't. Take a 4 foot 11 inch woman weighing 101 pounds. Now, make her a fireman. The weight of the hose and the power of the water would knock her on her butt if not something worse.  But it's the same way with men. There are just some things the opposite sex can do better.
 Not saying it isn't possible, but it's not an everyone can do this type of thing.

I think women should be strong and independant and not let a man do everything for them. I currently help my very sick boyfriend with the bills, and he grew with a feminist stronghold of women. It's taken me months to get him to accept my help, because letting a woman help out was wrong. If the woman could provide for herself, what was wrong with the man.

See, I have a man who has been scarred by the wrong type of feminism. As a whole, it's not a bad idea, just don't treat the men in you life like dirt. Because then, you are not a strong, feminist, independant woman. Then you are a slimy piece of scum.

Those are just my opinions, of course.
Logged

FierFlye
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:December 14, 2013, 06:14:57 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: FierFlye
Posts: 2392


Photo Credit: http://roothieb.blogspot.com/

Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3: January 05, 2008, 01:02:39 pm »

I'm sorta one, but I'm not that crazy about how its viewed in general.

Love your views on this.

Thank you, in advance.

I've worked with the Temple of Diana out of Wisconsin, and the general view I get from the group is that women are different than men, therefore have different spiritual needs.  We have different bodies, different minds.  We strive to create spaces and rituals where we can focus on celebrating our womanhood, without the influence of or comparison to men.

There are all sorts of women that belong to the Temple, 'butch lesbians' to 'well-put together girly girls'.  There is no mold that anyone needs to conform to.  Instead of classifying the charecteristics we have has either 'feminine' or 'masculine', we simply are.  We except who we are and celebrate it.

Women in general have body issues.  A lot of the women I've met through the temple have been sexually abused.  I'm not sure if Dianism draws more of these women, or if the problem is just wider spread than I knew-either way it's quite horrible.  Other women are just upset with their bodies because they are not thin enough, or strong enough, or whatever.  I think because so many of us are trying to learn to love our bodies, along with the celebrating womanhood idea, that is why we work only with the Goddess.  It's not that we dont believe in Gods or think they are important, it's just that the Goddess is central to our form of spirituality. 

I live with a man, and work with mostly men, so I'm around men all the time.  That's fine, but I've discovered it's nice to have girl-only time.  I like not having to worry about the male-female sexual conflicts or "oh, jeez, how do I look, he probably thinks I"m ugly" once in awhile. 

You can find the Temple of Diana website here:  www.templeofdiana.org
Logged

Spiritual Blog: Fier's Flame
Dania
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 17, 2008, 08:11:47 pm
United States United States

Religion: Gwyddon Seeker
Posts: 2895


Queen of Hare-Brained Schemes

Blog entries (4)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #4: January 05, 2008, 01:08:31 pm »

women are different than men, therefore have different spiritual needs.  We have different bodies, different minds.

This is very true. We DO have different needs than men...and embracing that, instead of trying to change it, works far better in the long run IMO.

That's fine, but I've discovered it's nice to have girl-only time. 

Oh, definitely. *Passes out tea and chocolate* Grin
Logged


FierFlye
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:December 14, 2013, 06:14:57 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: FierFlye
Posts: 2392


Photo Credit: http://roothieb.blogspot.com/

Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5: January 05, 2008, 01:15:19 pm »

There are some things that men seem to be able to excel at, that women cannot

I believe it's quite detrimental to go around claiming otherwise.  For example, how would I get men to do things for me that I didn't feel like doing if I couldn't play the damsel in distress card?
Logged

Spiritual Blog: Fier's Flame
Dania
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 17, 2008, 08:11:47 pm
United States United States

Religion: Gwyddon Seeker
Posts: 2895


Queen of Hare-Brained Schemes

Blog entries (4)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #6: January 05, 2008, 01:18:27 pm »

For example, how would I get men to do things for me that I didn't feel like doing if I couldn't play the damsel in distress card?

Grin
Logged


fiamma
Master Member
****
Last Login:May 17, 2012, 04:14:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Devotee of Apollo/Hellenic Polytheist
Posts: 554


...I'm playing with fire and not getting burned...

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7: January 05, 2008, 01:34:56 pm »

I'm sorta one, but I'm not that crazy about how its viewed in general.

Love your views on this.

Thank you, in advance.


I believe in equal pay for equal work, that we should all use our strengths and do what we can to overcome or get around our weaknesses, and equal societal status...but our abilities just are not equal from one person to the next, be it comparing a woman and a man, two women or two men.

There have been many a horrific atrocity committed in this world, and there continue to be. Things need to keep improving, work needs to be done.

The said, I don't get down with the Z Budapest and Starhawk set. I don't for a second buy into the Marija Gimbutas "once upon a time there was a peaceful monotheistic matriartchy in the world til the evul patriarchy came and wiped it out" myth. I worship a couple of goddesses, but I worship a couple of gods above all...and who I worship has nothing to do with the fact that they're a god or a goddess...if Apollo were a goddess, I don't think it would be any different. It is simply who they are and their sphere of influence in my life that matters.

I have no interest in a religion that separates men and women. No interest in a religion that obsesses over my womb- my religion is not about reproduction, or one that insists on re-spelling words like "woman" and "history".

I've been told a few times that I'm a "bad feminist" (I don't claim to be a feminist at all), "not a real pagan", "buying into the patriarchy" and all sorts of other thigns for these views. 

Pffft. Whatever.

Personally, I don't think the word "feminism" can rightly be used to discuss equality of the sexes. No more than "masculism" ever could be if the shoe were on the other foot.

For the record, I work in technical support. In an office that's about 90-95% male. I make more than most of the guys in my department. I've never been treated differently because I'm a woman. And I have no reason to believe that my education was ever stunted because I'm female. I'm a product of the PA public school system. I'm also a fairly girly-girl whose favorite color is pink. I knit. I like "pretty' things....

...and I've been known to go camping in ankle-deep mud, and don't go anywhere without my multifunction geek tool.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 01:37:05 pm by fiamma » Logged

Memories of Pain and Light
http://painandlight.wordpress.com/

Simple acts of devotion will never suffice.
You, I cannot worship by halves.
Redhound666
Journeyman
***
Last Login:November 29, 2008, 04:18:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: Tell You When I Have Found It ;)
Posts: 134


The Master of the Elements Lives Forever

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #8: January 05, 2008, 01:38:28 pm »

I'm sorta one, but I'm not that crazy about how its viewed in general.

Love your views on this.

Thank you, in advance.

I think feminism is fine in Paganism. It makes for better pagans.

Rather than worshiping just one deity, I worship both equally. Without both, life wouldn't continue. And just in life, without the equality of men and women, life wouldn't continue smoothly. Life isn't smooth. Frankly I would rather die than be here as a women. Less pay, less control of our bodies, less respect. Yea, sometimes men are "suppressed" but think how many of them are compared to women?  What's even worse is the Gay community. The US (except a few states) doesn't allow gay marriage. It's not "natural".  Roll Eyes

And don't get me started on race. Feminists are fighting for equality, not just for women, but for everyone, including men. Inequality somewhere is inequality everywhere. Good Grief people, get it together!

(I am a Feminist that fights for everyone. Men, Women, Children. Every Color, Every Race, Every Gender. Animals, Plants, The Mother, The Father. None are excluded.)     

However, i recognize the fact that the construction of the Human body is different and the needs are different. But that shouldn't affect our position in the world.

As Fiamma posted, I have no interest in a religion that separates men and women, nor one that tells me what I have to be or what I have to do with my body or one that favors the men over the women. I would rather have a religion that is equal. I want to follow my own Path, and that's exactly what I am doing.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 01:45:45 pm by Redhound666 » Logged

Please help my dragons grow!
Caomi_Brannon
Master Member
****
Last Login:September 09, 2010, 11:46:07 am
United States United States

Religion: Leanaí Laochra: Eireannach Tradition
Posts: 430


I write, therefore I live.

Blog entries (1)

amma.dennis


Ignore
« Reply #9: January 05, 2008, 01:48:49 pm »

I think feminism is fine in Paganism. It makes for better pagans.


This statement puzzles me. Maybe it's my biased opinion, but I'm reading that feminists are better pagans.  Huh

However, i recognize the fact that the construction of the Human body is different and the needs are different. But that shouldn't affect our position in the world.

Not the position in the world, no. But some of the things we CAN do. I am not what you would call a girly-girl. I'm an intellectual, I don't like doing hard, physical labor. I think it is more suited to men. I have done it. I can do it. And I will do it again. But there are some things women can't do, just as there are somethings men cannot do. There's no shame in that.
Logged

Dania
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 17, 2008, 08:11:47 pm
United States United States

Religion: Gwyddon Seeker
Posts: 2895


Queen of Hare-Brained Schemes

Blog entries (4)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #10: January 05, 2008, 01:55:01 pm »

But there are some things women can't do, just as there are somethings men cannot do. There's no shame in that.

Exactly!!!!

Men can't give birth, either. Grin
Logged


fiamma
Master Member
****
Last Login:May 17, 2012, 04:14:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Devotee of Apollo/Hellenic Polytheist
Posts: 554


...I'm playing with fire and not getting burned...

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11: January 05, 2008, 02:35:12 pm »

And don't get me started on race. Feminists are fighting for equality, not just for women, but for everyone, including men. Inequality somewhere is inequality everywhere. Good Grief people, get it together!

If feminists are fighting for everyone's equality, then why not call it um...I dunno...egalitarianism? Humanism?

Honestly, I've met more than my share of feminists who don't want equality, but superiority. I'm not talking about the crazy feminazi types either, though I've met more of those than I'd care to count. I'm talking about those that come across all "Oh, everyone should be equal" but when you talk to them for a while, you realize..."everyone" means "women", and usually their particular view of the good feminist should be "equal" and everyone else is either beneath that, if they happen to be a male, or beneath that but able to change if they just conform to whatever view of what a feminist is...and THEN they're "equal".
Logged

Memories of Pain and Light
http://painandlight.wordpress.com/

Simple acts of devotion will never suffice.
You, I cannot worship by halves.
Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
High Adept Member
****
Last Login:February 06, 2013, 08:12:28 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: free-flowing animist, Dudeist Priest
TCN ID: Absentminded
Posts: 2725


Blog entries (11)


« Reply #12: January 05, 2008, 02:43:17 pm »

Exactly!!!!

Men can't give birth, either. Grin

Neither can I.

Feminism does not dictate sameness, it dictates equality.

Equal pay for equal work.  Equal protection under the law.  Equal representation in court and politics.  None of this says that we must be the same.  It does say that if a woman is physically, mentally, and emotionally fit to work as a firefighter, then pay her the same as a man.  If a man is physically, mentally, and emotionally fit to work as a nurse, then pay him the same as a woman.

The wage gap between men and women, however, is not caused by a male retail worker being paid more than a female one.  It is caused by there being more men in high-paying fields than women, which used to be supported by unequal access to education.  Feminism, from the time of the suffragettes forward, has fought that unequal access, and the societal perceptions that women 'didn't need' or were 'unable to make use' of equal access.

It has never been a matter of insisting that a small, slight woman be given a job that demands height and strength if she wants it.  It is a matter of not denying a woman a job that she can do because she is the wrong gender, or paying her less once she has it.  Of correcting societal impressions that a man 'must' earn more than his partner in order to be a man.  That a woman must be a nurse when she would rather be a doctor, because of her gender.  Or that a man must be a doctor when he would rather be a nurse.

Realistically, it should be  called humanism, but that word has another meaning, and when feminism started it was the women that needed their chains broken, in law, education, the work force, and society.  Looking down on feminists as strident, misguided, and a means of oppression over men, not to mention claiming that it would 'force' women into a 'sameness' with men whether they wanted it or not, was one of the most effective weapons against it in the early days.

The shadow of that hangs on

/rant by old feminist

Absent
Logged

"There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure."
- Jack E. Leonard

Blessed are the cracked, for it is they who let in the light.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

L Cohen
Mari
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 10, 2010, 03:39:46 pm
United States United States

Posts: 1160

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #13: January 05, 2008, 02:47:35 pm »

Exactly!!!!

Men can't give birth, either. Grin

I have moments when I wish they could!
Logged
Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
High Adept Member
****
Last Login:February 06, 2013, 08:12:28 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: free-flowing animist, Dudeist Priest
TCN ID: Absentminded
Posts: 2725


Blog entries (11)


« Reply #14: January 05, 2008, 02:48:28 pm »

/rant by old feminist

Oh, and what this has to do with paganism:

The 'big 3' religions all have specific instructions for how women must conduct themselves, and who they must submit to.  Who may teach in church, who must rule in the household, how wives and daughters may be treated by husbands and fathers.

Many women find these intructions impossible to reconcile with their feelings of worth and equality, so they go looking for religions and spiritualities that do not include them.  It is not 'un-feminist' to worship a male god - they are rarely considered worthy of worship just by being male.  It is their 'godliness' being worshipped, not their 'maleness'.

Absent
Logged

"There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure."
- Jack E. Leonard

Blessed are the cracked, for it is they who let in the light.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

L Cohen

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 17   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Pagan Religions & Pagan Spirituality
Board Questions, Suggestions, and Feedback
Juni 2 2442 Last post March 03, 2007, 12:41:57 pm
by Juni
Pagan Religions in the UK? « 1 2 3 »
Paganism For Beginners
TheWaysOfOld 31 8803 Last post May 05, 2008, 12:40:29 pm
by Aescrof
Different Pagan Religions? « 1 2 »
Paganism For Beginners
Diamond NightShade 16 8078 Last post February 27, 2008, 03:52:54 pm
by Droops
Pagan Religions
Paganism For Beginners
nikkiwitch 10 3629 Last post October 19, 2008, 05:48:56 pm
by RandallS
Goddess Spirituality and Feminism « 1 2 3 »
Pagan Religions
katiza 36 9751 Last post May 25, 2011, 09:24:54 am
by RedLori
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.057 seconds with 49 queries.