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« Reply #105: January 24, 2008, 12:13:25 pm »

I didn't intend to imply that they were literal third-graders, or that we should treat them like literal third-graders.  It was a metaphor for the stage they're at in their development of human rights.  I presumed your mention of treating people like third-graders was metaphor or hyperbole and continued in that vein; if I am mistaken, then obviously I am even less familiar with the specifics of this particular situation than I'd realized. 


At what point do we require that, as individuals or their govt, comply with the human rights treaties that they have signed? 

At what point do we, as US individuals, ignore their human rights issues? 

Do we expect them, as individuals, to comply with human rights outside of their home region?  If so, why should they since they don't have to within their countries?

Partially back to protests.  I can understand protests against Israeli policies. There is an active peace movement within Israel. 

What I"m seeing in US and European prostests though is protests against Israel by support for Palistinian groups (via signs and regalia) that 1) engage in terrorism, 2) who's rhetoric and actions are not just anti-Israeli, but also anti-Semitic 3) would kill most of the protesters based upon religion, activities, or similar.   The old adage that one is know by one's friends seems to apply.  If you are supporting openly anti-Semitic organizations than you are supporting anti-Semitism.

An example would be protesting against US slavery reparations by supporting the KKKs public position / effort to defeat such reparations. 
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« Reply #106: January 24, 2008, 12:49:42 pm »


Exactly what are you calling a "Muslim" country?  The majority of the world's Muslims live in Indonesia, which have never had anything like Sharia law.  Nor has Turkey, which is overwhelmingly Muslim. 


I always forget about Indonesia, and I'm afraid I don't know anything about it, except that it's pretty damn diverse religiously.

And FWIH about Turkey, they're in a daily struggle to not turn into a country of Sharia law.  Wasn't there some big thing about hijabs during their last election?

Although upon reflection, I should've said "most Muslim countries."  I was thinking of the ones on the Arabian Peninsula and winding up and around to whoever borders Nepal, primarily.  Maybe not so much N. African countries like Morocco and Egypt (I think Islam is the last thing most people think of when they think of Egypt  Smiley ).

Quote
This tone is what I think what the earlier poster was reacting to.  You've essentially labeled two entire continents and a few other large swaths of the world as backwards and misogynistic.   That seems to be a huge overgeneralization to me and doesn't change much from the feeling of what you were saying earlier.  It sounds like you are saying "How can we expect any more of those savages?"  I assume that isn't what you mean, but your tone and sweeping generalizations are contributing to that perception.

I really do fail to see what was so condescending about my tone.  I thought I'd taken pains to point out that the West is really only any better about it because we've been at it longer.  We have the underlying cultural assumption that women are people, and that's what we teach our children.  There are still misogynistic assumptions, but we see killing women as wrong.  We don't have "honor killings;" we would call that murder, because we were raised to think of women as people, not because we're incapable of things like that.  You can't really expect a culture that doesn't think of women as people to necessarily see why honor killings (and I am just using the example that came to mind) would be interpreted as even being wrong, let along as being murder. 

I wasn't trying to call anyone savages.  Equality is hard.  For everybody.  It frankly seems to go against basic human nature, or at least be completely foreign to human cultures.  It takes a long time, on the scale of generations.  We first have to learn to think of "the other" as being people, too, which is a tremendous hurdle.  We are all tribalists at heart; the vast, vast majority of humanity, Westerners included, see the world in an "us and them" way (it just varies from culture to culture who's "us" and who's "them").  We've spent how many hundreds of thousands of years, as a species, surviving because of our suspicion of those not of our tribe.  So what we have to do for equality to succeed is learn to expand our notion of "us" to people of other races, religions, the opposite gender, whatever.  That takes a lot of time, and hard work, societally speaking.  The only fundamental difference between relatively tolerant societies and relatively intolerant ones is how big our circle of "us" is.

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« Reply #107: January 24, 2008, 01:01:05 pm »


If I understand what Pyperlie's saying, she feels that they are more comparable to third-graders than to full-grown adults in that metaphorical sense.  You can't expect third-graders to do calculus; you can't expect a country that's only just really starting to think that maybe women are people too to get all the concepts involved in equality (apply as appropriate and necessary to human rights in general).  Is it reasonable to expect a country to give women equal pay and equal employment opportunity when they're still working on the concept of women as people as opposed to property? <snip>  Hence the different standards, just as you'd have different standards for what sort of math a third-grader should be able to do vs. a high schooler or college graduate.  It's difficult to have the same standards across the board when not everyone is even on the same level.  Having consistent standards for a given level, and expecting people to progress upward through levels, sure.  Same standards for everyone regardless of what level they're at, that's trickier.

If only I had your eloquence.   Cheesy

Somehow it sounds so much worse when I say it, though I can't quite pinpoint why.  It's wrong in our culture to marry off your daughter at all, but in a culture that marries girls off at 6 or 7, waiting until they're 12 or 13 would be a quantum leap in human rights.  Or at least, I think that's a clearer example of what I mean than I've apparently managed so far.

Quote
Again, I've got no real stake in this, though, I'm just trying to interpret here.  *shrug*  I hope Pyperlie will correct me if I've got any of this wrong.

Hell no, you put it better than I do.  Thank you.  Smiley
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« Reply #108: January 24, 2008, 01:31:37 pm »

At what point do we require that, as individuals or their govt, comply with the human rights treaties that they have signed? 

At what point do we, as US individuals, ignore their human rights issues? 

Do we expect them, as individuals, to comply with human rights outside of their home region?  If so, why should they since they don't have to within their countries?

I don't know, Peter.  As I've said, I'm really only trying to help along communication by trying to expand on what Pyperlie's been saying.  I'm in over my head here politically and I know it, so I'm trying hard to stay away from speculating about the actual situation here.  I have guesses as to what I'd say on a very general and theoretical level for all of those, but I don't know whether those guesses would be remotely applicable to the specific situation in the Middle East, so I don't really think it's a good idea for me to get into them.  Perhaps someone else will have answers for you.
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« Reply #109: January 24, 2008, 01:32:43 pm »

Hell no, you put it better than I do.  Thank you.  Smiley

Happy to help.  Smiley
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« Reply #110: January 24, 2008, 06:55:34 pm »

I didn't intend to imply that they were literal third-graders, or that we should treat them like literal third-graders.  It was a metaphor for the stage they're at in their development of human rights.  I presumed your mention of treating people like third-graders was metaphor or hyperbole and continued in that vein; if I am mistaken, then obviously I am even less familiar with the specifics of this particular situation than I'd realized. 

If I understand what Pyperlie's saying, she feels that they are more comparable to third-graders than to full-grown adults in that metaphorical sense.  You can't expect third-graders to do calculus; you can't expect a country that's only just really starting to think that maybe women are people too to get all the concepts involved in equality (apply as appropriate and necessary to human rights in general).  Is it reasonable to expect a country to give women equal pay and equal employment opportunity when they're still working on the concept of women as people as opposed to property?  (Random example; I've already said I don't know the situation well and am arguing purely theoretically, so this may not apply exactly, but this is the general idea.)  Hence the different standards, just as you'd have different standards for what sort of math a third-grader should be able to do vs. a high schooler or college graduate.  It's difficult to have the same standards across the board when not everyone is even on the same level.  Having consistent standards for a given level, and expecting people to progress upward through levels, sure.  Same standards for everyone regardless of what level they're at, that's trickier.

It's more "walk before you can run", really, IMHO, just from a slightly different angle.

Again, I've got no real stake in this, though, I'm just trying to interpret here.  *shrug*  I hope Pyperlie will correct me if I've got any of this wrong.

I knew when I typed that that I had rather failed at conveying my meaning and in hindsight I suppose I should not have posted it, but I was rather in a hurry. As I now have slightly more time I will attempt to explain it in a somewhat more logical manner.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that by virtue of the fact that all members of the ruling system (as far as I know) are adults who must make their decisions as adults they must be held accountable for their decisions. I suppose that an effective parallel would be the point at which in an individual's life they become responsible for their own actions. If a child is raised in a situation where stealing is common practice he can be excused for his actions if he steals from another member of his nursery. However, if that same child when he has reached adulthood (generally considered as being around 18 though I personally feel it is younger) chooses to steal his actions are no longer excused. As such I view all countries as adults, however, each has grown up with different conditioning; despite their conditioning they remain responsible for their actions by virtue of the fact they are adults. This does not mean I do not recognize that the ME will not become the epitome of human rights observing regions over night, only that I expect an adult response to the situation from them and in the same vein as that I expect a moral response to the situation from them.
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« Reply #111: January 24, 2008, 09:51:49 pm »

At what point do we require that, as individuals or their govt, comply with the human rights treaties that they have signed? 

 

We should expect our government to complie with human rights treates and other treaties that affect individuals.  We don't, to our shame.

When religions and/or governments/societies set up codes of ethics and conduct, then they are open to criticium or even contempt if they openly flaunt their state beliefs.  Yes, much of the world does that, but that is no excuse.

All 3 of the book religions fall into this catagory, so does Buddism.  I can't comment on others.
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« Reply #112: January 24, 2008, 11:44:30 pm »

And FWIH about Turkey, they're in a daily struggle to not turn into a country of Sharia law.  Wasn't there some big thing about hijabs during their last election?

The fuss in Turkey about hijabs is that women wanted the right to be able to wear them.  As it stands now, no one is allowed to wear religious garments in public schools, nor is anyone allowed to wear religious garments in any sort of work connected with the government.  In other words, folks were upset because Turkey's *very* secular government was suppressing religious freedom.  That's a far cry from teetering on the brink of Sharia law.

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« Reply #113: January 25, 2008, 12:22:25 am »

We should expect our government to complie with human rights treates and other treaties that affect individuals.  We don't, to our shame.


I wasn't asking about our govt. I was asking at what point do we expect Other govts, or individuals in such countries, to stand by the treaties they have signed. 

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« Reply #114: January 25, 2008, 12:28:52 am »


Although upon reflection, I should've said "most Muslim countries."  I was thinking of the ones on the Arabian Peninsula and winding up and around to whoever borders Nepal, primarily.  Maybe not so much N. African countries like Morocco and Egypt (I think Islam is the last thing most people think of when they think of Egypt  Smiley ).

I really do fail to see what was so condescending about my tone.  I thought I'd taken pains to point out that the West is really only any better about it because we've been at it longer.  We have the underlying cultural assumption that women are people, and that's what we teach our children.  There are still misogynistic assumptions, but we see killing women as wrong.  We don't have "honor killings;" we would call that murder, because we were raised to think of women as people, not because we're incapable of things like that.  You can't really expect a culture that doesn't think of women as people to necessarily see why honor killings (and I am just using the example that came to mind) would be interpreted as even being wrong, let along as being murder. 


What about Japan?  They are not a Western country.  They managed to change, and that took only from 1945 to what? 1970 or so?


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« Reply #115: January 25, 2008, 11:46:20 am »


The fuss in Turkey about hijabs is that women wanted the right to be able to wear them.  <snip> In other words, folks were upset because Turkey's *very* secular government was suppressing religious freedom.  That's a far cry from teetering on the brink of Sharia law.

I thought the whole reason for laws banning hijabs in certain settings in the first place was fear of religious fringe elements taking over.  Whether or not that's a particularly good way to go about it, and I'll be the first to admit that it's probably not, I was under the impression that the intention was precisely to guard against de facto Sharia. 
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« Reply #116: January 25, 2008, 12:11:29 pm »


What about Japan?  They are not a Western country.  They managed to change, and that took only from 1945 to what? 1970 or so?

Actually, I mentioned Japan in my first post; and it was really only after WWII that things really began to change here, too.  But it has to come from w/i the country, and as I've said it takes time.  Laws can be changed overnight, but it's the basic attitudes that both make all the difference, and take generations.  Black men technically had the right to vote in this country since 1870, but they still didn't have the de facto right until 1964.  It wasn't assumed to be a basic right.

And it probably helped that their whole world-view had been turned upside-down by losing WWII (and Hiroshima and Nagasaki).

Plus, FWIH Japan is still pretty xenophobic, and women's place in society is still lower down the social rung (like everywhere really) even if the more blatantly exploitative things have pretty much stopped.  And it's easier for a homogeneous society to remake itself, I suspect; it's harder to hate your neighbor when he's just like you.  I don't know that Japan would be doing as well as it is vis a vis human rights if it was a more diverse place, because it's almost certainly harder to build an egalitarian society when there are more groups you have to integrate and think of as people.
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« Reply #117: January 25, 2008, 12:25:57 pm »

Actually, I mentioned Japan in my first post; and it was really only after WWII that things really began to change here, too.  But it has to come from w/i the country, and as I've said it takes time.  Laws can be changed overnight, but it's the basic attitudes that both make all the difference, and take generations.  Black men technically had the right to vote in this country since 1870, but they still didn't have the de facto right until 1964.  It wasn't assumed to be a basic right.

And it probably helped that their whole world-view had been turned upside-down by losing WWII (and Hiroshima and Nagasaki).

Plus, FWIH Japan is still pretty xenophobic, and women's place in society is still lower down the social rung (like everywhere really) even if the more blatantly exploitative things have pretty much stopped.  And it's easier for a homogeneous society to remake itself, I suspect; it's harder to hate your neighbor when he's just like you.  I don't know that Japan would be doing as well as it is vis a vis human rights if it was a more diverse place, because it's almost certainly harder to build an egalitarian society when there are more groups you have to integrate and think of as people.

Including Japan, even in your first post, doesn't, in my mind explain fully why the Japanese & Koreans managed to create countries that have human rights but other ones don't.

Much of the mideast is fairly homogeneous.  While there are two sects of Islam, each country is by itself mostly one or the other.  Even then the human rights violations are not constrained to one sect vs another. 

All the mideast countries were created either just before or just after WWII. So if Japan could change, why can't any of the others?  Or how about India?  While they still have caste discrimination problems, such discrimination Is illegal.  They are Trying, by at least passing laws against it.

And yet the mostly Muslim mideastern countries Don't have a laws to prevent discrimination, even of women.  Killing of women is still the law if the husband or father thinks she has shamed them.


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« Reply #118: January 25, 2008, 12:44:16 pm »


Including Japan, even in your first post, doesn't, in my mind explain fully why the Japanese & Koreans managed to create countries that have human rights but other ones don't.

I wasn't claiming it did; the point is that they have, the ME hasn't, and therefor I expect more in the short term from them.  Anything else is speculation on the reasons.

Maybe I should add here that in the very long term, I expect the same of every human culture; it's just in the short-to-medium term that I don't.

Quote
Much of the mideast is fairly homogeneous.  While there are two sects of Islam, each country is by itself mostly one or the other.  Even then the human rights violations are not constrained to one sect vs another.

The comment on homogeneity was speculation related to Japan.  I really don't know why some places have managed some level of human rights and other places haven't; all I know is that I expect more of the places that have.   If, f'ex, someone is murdered in police custody in Canada, I would be floored, but if it happened in China, nobody would be surprised.

Quote
All the mideast countries were created either just before or just after WWII. So if Japan could change, why can't any of the others?

Japan wasn't created after WWII; IMO it's apples and oranges.  And I'm sure they can change, but when they do (assuming we don't all manage to destroy ourselves and our world first), there'll still probably be things we'd frown on.  Because their societies are further behind on human rights.

Quote
Or how about India?  While they still have caste discrimination problems, such discrimination Is illegal.  They are Trying, by at least passing laws against it.

And what's the status of women in India?  It's not exactly unheard of for women to be sold off, or for girls to be given to old men.  It was the British that put a stop to widows being immolated upon their husbands' funeral pyre.

Quote
And yet the mostly Muslim mideastern countries Don't have a laws to prevent discrimination, even of women.  Killing of women is still the law if the husband or father thinks she has shamed them.

It's not like I'm defending atrocity; putting a stop to "honor" killings would be a tremendous step forward.  But if an Israeli were to do something like that, again, people would be shocked and he'd rot in prison.  If somebody in Pakistan would do that, it'd be another day.

And the "even of women" part of that comment; surely you've noticed that women are usually the last, with the possible exception of children, to reap the benefits of human rights improvements.
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« Reply #119: January 25, 2008, 02:34:37 pm »

I thought the whole reason for laws banning hijabs in certain settings in the first place was fear of religious fringe elements taking over.  Whether or not that's a particularly good way to go about it, and I'll be the first to admit that it's probably not, I was under the impression that the intention was precisely to guard against de facto Sharia. 

Turkish Muslims, on the whole, are actually quite moderate about their religious beliefs.  The only push towards more radical beliefs have come in very recent years as a reaction to the Bush brigade.  The bans on religious garments are not new; they've been in place (I believe) as long as Turkey as been recognized as a country.  From what I can see, the desire to maintain those laws don't have as much to do with suppressing Muslim identity, as the desire to appear secular, modern, and European...especially since they are pushing to become part of the European union.

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