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Author Topic: Sleepless and Shamed South of Seattle  (Read 21815 times)
Syrbal
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« Reply #15: January 13, 2008, 11:39:58 am »

l
Of note, a Taser is a lot less deadly than a night stick. Night sticks are classified as a deadly weapon and their use is classified as deadly force. You have to have special training to use a night stick. The suspect could have been beaten into submission or tasered. Much better to have been tasered, less chance of dying and very limited chance of spending weeks in the hospital.


Thing is, they didn't taser the guy to subdue him.  He WAS subdued.  They tasered him cause they were all fired up and pissed off at him.  Cops are supposed to catch bad guys....not be on the spot punishment.
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Syrbal
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« Reply #16: January 13, 2008, 11:45:58 am »

I haven't seen the video (I still haven't solved my 'puter's sound probs, and from what Cyn says, it appears I'd be missing info to watch without sound) but I do have strong feelings about taser use.  One of those strong feelings is that I'm damned glad of not only tasers, but of pepper spray, tear gas, and the good old-fashioned nightstick; I like the police being able to do something less lethal than "shoot 'em all".



Sunflower

You can actually see the wires, when they fire the taser, as well as hear the faint sound---tho that is a trick of sorts amid the hubbub of the crowd.  I, too, greeted news of tasers and non-lethal tools with relief; I am thus all the more saddened to see them abused by officers acting in very unprofessional ways. 
I must just be an old romantic---I still see police work, like I do teaching and many other civilization upholding professions, not just as a job, but as a vocation.  It has the added emphasis on being just that romantic thing...one who UPHOLDS civilization, that make it very important to be professional for more than personal advancement reasons.  People who are more interested in knowing stuff like how fast a taser downs someone, who get that odd look in their eye (if you know what I mean) should NOT be cops at all.  Because, just how I see it--mind you, once you are a cop, other cops depend upon you and will defend you right or wrong in many cases and that starts a long slide down a bad hill if the person in question has personal motives and emotions NOT professional ethics guided behavior.
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« Reply #17: January 13, 2008, 11:49:18 am »


Almost forgot, I almost always disagree with Schram.  He is an asshat.  But this one really topped it off---and he didn't even address the aggressive behavior of the police threatening the young black woman.  He is one reason I don't watch my news OR commentary on KOMO, actually.
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« Reply #18: January 13, 2008, 03:13:48 pm »

Personally, if someone is running from the cops I would usually consider them guilty as charged, but hey, that's from someone with no background of having problems with cops.

I haven't personally had an incident with the cops either...but I know a lotta people who have.  If cops are coming at me w/tasers, you're damn right I'm gonna run.  I probably won't make it very far before they get me, but damned if I ain't gonna try.

Quote
All I'm saying is, we don't have enough information to go on and I'm not going to automatically condemn the cops as abusing their power and roughing people up without knowing the background story.

I'm on dial-up, and have thus given up trying to see videos online unless I've got hours to let the damn thing download, but my immediate impulse is to suspect unnecessary force on the part of the cops, simply because that is so often the case.

Quote
Then again, there are quite a few differences between the police force in the USA and the Australian coppers.

I don't know anything about Australian cops, but US cops are notorious for abusing their position. 
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« Reply #19: January 13, 2008, 03:33:24 pm »



From the second link:

Quote
So keep this in mind: If you're not one of the bad guys and don't want to be treated like one, it's simple: Don't run from the cops.

IMO this guy is a dumbass.  It's this attitude that makes people fear the cops.  If the po-po steps over the line w/their employers, the citizens of this country, the other cops and people who've never had an issue w/the cops will immediately jump to the cops' defense.  Sure, they maybe didn't need to electrocute you when you didn't pose a threat, but let that be a lesson to you about running from the Man.

Quote
Of note, a Taser is a lot less deadly than a night stick. Night sticks are classified as a deadly weapon and their use is classified as deadly force. You have to have special training to use a night stick. The suspect could have been beaten into submission or tasered. Much better to have been tasered, less chance of dying and very limited chance of spending weeks in the hospital.
bolding mine

Which frankly I think misses the point.  None of those links tell what he actually (allegedly) did, other than a verbal argument with a cop, and it's probably safe to assume that, had he knifed someone, it would've been immediately mentioned in the articles about it.  What pisses me off, and makes me suspect it was almost certainly excessive and inappropriate force, is the PD's response:

Quote
Police spokesman Mark Jamieson said he did not believe the officers' actions were excessive.

"Again you have to ask, why did this man run from police?" Jamieson said when asked about the number of officers working to control Richardson.

After he was tackled, the tape shows Richardson on his hands and knees, not moving. Then an officer standing behind him fired a Taser at Richardson's back.

Jamieson said the use of the Taser was not excessive force even though Richardson was on the ground.

"You saw how quickly the application of the Taser got him into compliance," Jamieson said after viewing the video tape of the arrest.

So the PD spokesman himself is basically saying, "if it'll make it a little bit easier for our cops to bring you in, whether or not you've actually done anything that merits arresting you, we'll tase your ass." 
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              -----Richard Feynman

I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night.
               ----Sarah Williams
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« Reply #20: January 13, 2008, 04:11:19 pm »

Thing is, they didn't taser the guy to subdue him.  He WAS subdued.  They tasered him cause they were all fired up and pissed off at him.  Cops are supposed to catch bad guys....not be on the spot punishment.

Well, looking at the video I see the guy on his hands and knees, but as has been mentioned still in a position to fire a gun. The cops were telling him to get all the way down and he was not doing so, and did not do so until they tased him again. He was not subdued to a point the cops felt was safe for himself, the bystanders and the police and he was not doing as they commanded him several times. The minute he listened to them and stopped fighting they did not taser him again. And no mention of any pepper spray and the woman walked away, not crying or running, being moved away from an incident in standard police procedure format. Although the one cop who trained the taser on her was way out of line and a perfect example of what you are talking about.

This in no way means, in any way, that taser are just hunky-dory and cops never use them incorrectly. I think they do and I agree something should be done to strictly control the use of them, I, myself, am just not seeing the abuse in this case. But I am in complete agreement with you that police can get carried away. Because they did not beat him with night sticks when he did not listen to them, tasing can make it look non-violent when it it a very dangerous thing to do. But running from a cop and continuing to fight is also very dangerous.

When you are pulled over for a speeding ticket, the reason you are to have your hands in view and have super bright lights on you is not because cops are bullies who want you to feel like a criminal, but because there is a very real chance you could get shot if they come up and you make a sudden move and they can't see what going on. It is for your protection. Perhaps I am naive, but I have a certain amount of trust in the legal system am if they arrest me by mistake it will be sorted out, in a calm manner, at the cop shop or by my lawyer. It did happen to me once, and I received a nice little chunk of change for their stupid mistake.
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« Reply #21: January 13, 2008, 06:11:16 pm »

I haven't personally had an incident with the cops either...but I know a lotta people who have.  If cops are coming at me w/tasers, you're damn right I'm gonna run.  I probably won't make it very far before they get me, but damned if I ain't gonna try.

I'm on dial-up, and have thus given up trying to see videos online unless I've got hours to let the damn thing download, but my immediate impulse is to suspect unnecessary force on the part of the cops, simply because that is so often the case.

I don't know anything about Australian cops, but US cops are notorious for abusing their position. 
You're absolutely right they are and I would run too. It is my belief there is just as much crime amongst the cops anymore as there is amongst the criminals. Every day even here in this little area of nowhere there is a cop caught at something. Last week it was one letting another go after stopping him for DUI. I have no trust in them at all. I hate it that in our state the medical marijuana program is run by them and not the health dept. They can come into my home day or night to make sure I don't have more than my two ounce limit. I have not had to deal with it yet but do not feel good about opening my door to one of them in the middle of the night at all.
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Eadie
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« Reply #22: January 13, 2008, 06:21:20 pm »

From the second link:

IMO this guy is a dumbass.  It's this attitude that makes people fear the cops.  If the po-po steps over the line w/their employers, the citizens of this country, the other cops and people who've never had an issue w/the cops will immediately jump to the cops' defense. 

This IS a problem.  All government employees WORK FOR ME as a taxpayer, and DAMN WELL BETTER BELIEVE I KNOW IT.  I have never had to push this to a police officer, but I have made it clear to school teachers and principals.  I expect them to do their job and not treat me like some dumbs**t they can ignore or mistreat. 
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« Reply #23: January 14, 2008, 10:49:07 pm »

I, too, greeted news of tasers and non-lethal tools with relief; I am thus all the more saddened to see them abused by officers acting in very unprofessional ways. 
I must just be an old romantic---I still see police work, like I do teaching and many other civilization upholding professions, not just as a job, but as a vocation.  It has the added emphasis on being just that romantic thing...one who UPHOLDS civilization, that make it very important to be professional for more than personal advancement reasons.  People who are more interested in knowing stuff like how fast a taser downs someone, who get that odd look in their eye (if you know what I mean) should NOT be cops at all.  Because, just how I see it--mind you, once you are a cop, other cops depend upon you and will defend you right or wrong in many cases and that starts a long slide down a bad hill if the person in question has personal motives and emotions NOT professional ethics guided behavior.
Then we are both "old romantics".

And you don't want to hear me rant and grumble about "the blue wall".  (Or possibly, given your taste for debate, you do Cheesy.)  I'm certainly not knocking the mutual interdependence, or cops having each others' backs (cops, soldiers, and some others live or die by that), but I despise it being used as a way for them to be, if not above, then outside the law.

Sunflower
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« Reply #24: January 15, 2008, 01:15:39 am »

Then we are both "old romantics".

And you don't want to hear me rant and grumble about "the blue wall".  (Or possibly, given your taste for debate, you do Cheesy.) 

Sunflower

I have little taste for debate; it has been my experience that a lot of folks who like debate, like to debate instead of actually doing things.  And semantics...well, yes, that instead of truths is the too-oft bill of fare.
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« Reply #25: January 16, 2008, 01:27:30 am »

I have little taste for debate
I didn't care a lot for my word choice even when I made it; I just couldn't think of how else to express it.  I still can't.  No matter; I figure you know how the rant goes, so I don't have to make it and you don't have to hear it, and we can both spend the time more constructively. Smiley

Sunflower
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« Reply #26: January 16, 2008, 10:28:02 am »

I didn't care a lot for my word choice even when I made it; I just couldn't think of how else to express it.  I still can't.  No matter; I figure you know how the rant goes, so I don't have to make it and you don't have to hear it, and we can both spend the time more constructively. Smiley

Sunflower

LOL, true, we have both been round that particular merry go round a time or two.
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« Reply #27: January 19, 2008, 06:27:51 pm »

And now, a handcuffed runaway NINE year old GIRL apparently was not "subdued" enough, so a Tucson officer used his taser on her:

+++ A veteran South Tucson police sergeant is under investigation for firing his stun gun to subdue a handcuffed 9-year-old girl.

At the request of Chief Sixto Molina, the Pima County Sheriff's Department is trying to determine if the sergeant committed a crime when he sent a jolt through the child's body.

The police officer used a Taser on the girl at about 5:30 p.m. May 8, Molina said. The nonlethal weapon uses a pulsating electrical charge to immobilize a person for several seconds.

"I'll be the first to admit, you've got a veteran sergeant Tasing a 9-year-old girl, it doesn't look good," said Molina.

The sergeant was one of at least two officers who responded to a call from the Arizona Children's Home, a school for special needs children, on South Eighth Avenue, he said.

"It had to do with a runaway from the institution," the chief said. He declined to provide further details. +++

http://tinyurl.com/3dxy2
My, who knows, she might have spit on someone or something; what a little hellcat.  (sarcasm font off)  Gee, if a veteran officer can't handle a pissed off little girl, I wonder how he deals with serious threats?
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Syrbal the Gone

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« Reply #28: January 19, 2008, 06:40:19 pm »

My, who knows, she might have spit on someone or something; what a little hellcat.  (sarcasm font off)  Gee, if a veteran officer can't handle a pissed off little girl, I wonder how he deals with serious threats?

Nine year old?  Can't say.

How about a 14 year old?  I know of some cases with 14 year olds that a taser would NOT have been sufficient to control the situation.

Also note that the police is being investigated to see if he committed a Crime.  If all he had done was use a taser on an adult who in hind sight didn't need it, it would not be a crime.
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« Reply #29: January 19, 2008, 07:44:31 pm »

Nine year old?  Can't say.

How about a 14 year old?  I know of some cases with 14 year olds that a taser would NOT have been sufficient to control the situation.

Also note that the police is being investigated to see if he committed a Crime.  If all he had done was use a taser on an adult who in hind sight didn't need it, it would not be a crime.

I know last year when the school had to subdue my son, he was 13, nearly 6 foot, skinny as a rail and it took five people.  Of course, they had no taser, and they were trained and they were trying extremely hard not to hurt him and he was just flailing and trying to run, not actively hurt any one.  Actually, I'm kind of glad they didn't have a taser.  They just laid on him till he calmed down.  Fortuneately it was the only time that year.  haven't had any this year and hope to keep it that way.
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