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Author Topic: Revenge: Right or Wrong?  (Read 23794 times)
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« Reply #15: February 01, 2008, 11:00:57 am »

Partly inspired by a thread were Hera was discussed got me wondering about how different pagans from different religions view the concept of revenge.
 Do you think its right personally: to exact revenge? Or does any one follow the concept of turning the other cheek?  Does any one go to the gods for retribution such as Nemesis?  I appreciate any input.

Wow, this is a good one.  This is something I have been giving a lot of thought to lately.

I don't really like revenge, because I see it as cause for so much misery in the world. Group A does something to group B, then group B does something to group A, then then group A does something back, then group B does something back, and it keeps going on generation after generation.   Cry

I think the old "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord" kind of thing might be the right way to go. Karma or Ma'at is at work all the time trying to balance things out. Instead of trying to correct things yourself, it may be better to bring your problem to the attention of the Gods and let them deal with it if and when they choose to. If order and balance are to be maintained I think they would know best how to do this.

As a matter of fact, this very thing happened to me recently, where I had to decide on taking action myself or taking it to the Gods.  A friend of mine had experienced misfortune because of the actions of another. I was so very angry, I really really really wanted to put a curse on the one responsible. I knew exactly what I thought would be a fitting punishment for this person, it was very specific and out of the ordinary.

But, I didn't cast the spell for a couple of reasons. For one thing, I was worried about backlash because it would be a spell of great magnitude. Secondly it really wasn't my fight, it was my friends (who happens to be a devout Christian).

So, instead of casting a spell myself, I took it to the fates. It was sort of like - hey, if you think this is fitting, here is my idea. Well, that very night exactly what I wanted to happen did. Instant Karma or accidental curse? I am still not sure.  But, I honestly don't think that I alone could have pulled off such a feat.  Grin

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« Reply #16: February 01, 2008, 08:12:25 pm »

I think the old "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord" kind of thing might be the right way to go. Karma or Ma'at is at work all the time trying to balance things out. Instead of trying to correct things yourself, it may be better to bring your problem to the attention of the Gods and let them deal with it if and when they choose to. If order and balance are to be maintained I think they would know best how to do this.

Yes, this is my experience. I don't have any way of knowing all the many elements in play, so I turn to whoever seems the best One(s) to discuss it with, and do what is suggested. Which has generally involved work I need to do on myself, or protection of some kind. That's it. One of my favorite old saws is that holding a resentment is like taking poison and expecting it to kill the other person.
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« Reply #17: February 01, 2008, 11:56:38 pm »

One of my favorite old saws is that holding a resentment is like taking poison and expecting it to kill the other person.

Love it. Gotta remember that one!


I am, by my nature, inclined to want to "pay back".
However, it is clear to me now, that the Goddess is jealous of Her Right to be the one to exact revenge. If I am wronged, I find if I merely sit back and "wish" the Goddess avenge me, She will.
I've found that if I try to do more on a physical or personal level, there is always some sort of backlash. 
When giving the Karma Wagon a shove so it will flatten someone, it is likely to run over your foot in the process. Wink

Oh, yes. Totally agree. I think revenge is the territory of the Gods and they get ticked off at the lowly humans interfering in their business. They will have no problem at all giving you a good case of magic backlash to put you in your place.  Grin

I bet it has happened that sometimes you don't even have to "wish"?  No doubt you are being protected, and she doesn't take kindly to those who treat her devoted one badly.
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« Reply #18: February 02, 2008, 06:27:13 am »

I think the old "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord" kind of thing might be the right way to go. Karma or Ma'at is at work all the time trying to balance things out. Instead of trying to correct things yourself, it may be better to bring your problem to the attention of the Gods and let them deal with it if and when they choose to. If order and balance are to be maintained I think they would know best how to do this.

Frankly, speaking as a Kemetic, I think you totally just totally missed the point of ma'at. It is *our* responsibility to uphold ma'at - to not only act in accordance with ma'at ourselves, but to intervene where she is being offended. The upholding of ma'at is our primary offering to the Netjeru, it is how we feed Their kas, more than any other offering you might make. Ma'at isn't some force trying to balance things, it is a state that we should strive for in order to make the world function the best way it can.

Frankly, as a devotee of Sekhmet and Ma'at, primarily, I'd consider it downright stupid to bring issues of ma'at to the Netjeru for solving without having done my damndest to resolve things myself. After all, trying to dump my responsibilities on others isn't exactly ma'at either.

As a more general response to the thread, coming from the above perspective: we all have a responsibility to ma'at, and so if you act against me, I do have an obligation to respond to that. Matter of fact, if you act against Joe Q. Random on the street and I have the ability to interfere, I have an obligation to act. It's not a matter of satisfying my own desires, it's a matter of helping society run well, which also means that while I have to act, I also have to keep my actions in line with what is reasonable. Again: justice rather than revenge.

--Chabas
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« Reply #19: February 02, 2008, 09:47:46 am »

It is *our* responsibility to uphold ma'at - to not only act in accordance with ma'at ourselves, but to intervene where she is being offended. The upholding of ma'at is our primary offering to the Netjeru, it is how we feed Their kas, more than any other offering you might make. Ma'at isn't some force trying to balance things, it is a state that we should strive for in order to make the world function the best way it can.
{snippage for space}

I'm not Kemetic, I'm BTW, but I see some significant congruence, here.

As a Wiccan, people are constantly throwing the Rede and the Law of Returns at me, assuming that they mean I have to be passive and let people hurt me and mine.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Like a Kemetic who honors ma'at, the traditional Wiccan recognizes that all actions cause harm and the Rede is just a little koan we use to remind ourselves to pay attention to the consequences of what we do.

My sig line used to contain a line from a Rush song called, "Free Will" -- the line was something like, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."  That means that action and inaction are choices for which we are equally responsible. 

That means that, as a Wiccan, I cannot allow harm to be done by others without taking steps to mitigate it if it is within my power and my area of responsibility.  I cannot be responsible for everyone everywhere; in that way lies madness.  But harm me or mine, and I will, at the very least, invoke Justice, which might mean calling the police, and might mean taking more personal action.  My actions might be magical or mundane, or both. 

The Law of Returns reminds us that everything we do (which includes doing nothing) has repercussions that will come back on us.  Ignore a cry for help and find oneself without aid when one needs it.  Allow harm to be done to another and find others allowing harm to be done to you. 

That's no way to live. 

Possibly literally.

One of my favorite quotations is the one from Edmund Burke that reminds us that "...all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Doing nothing is not an acceptable option; pretending that passivity is a moral choice is cowardice.  Trying and failing despite an honest effort is more to be admired than refusing to try, which is despicable.




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« Reply #20: February 02, 2008, 10:07:25 am »

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."  That means that action and inaction are choices for which we are equally responsible. 

This remindes me of my sister-in-law who couldn't decide to have a fourth child or not. She said she wasn't trying to get pregnant, but wasn't trying not to either.   Wink

The Law of Returns reminds us that everything we do (which includes doing nothing) has repercussions that will come back on us.  Ignore a cry for help and find oneself without aid when one needs it.  Allow harm to be done to another and find others allowing harm to be done to you. 

Yep, agreed.  There is a difference between protecting yourself and loved ones and seeking revenge though. I have no problem at all with going to any lengths to protect myself and family, but wanting revenge can sometimes be just downright petty, depending on the circumstances.
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« Reply #21: February 02, 2008, 11:04:09 am »

Frankly, speaking as a Kemetic, I think you totally just totally missed the point of ma'at. It is *our* responsibility to uphold ma'at - to not only act in accordance with ma'at ourselves, but to intervene where she is being offended. The upholding of ma'at is our primary offering to the Netjeru, it is how we feed Their kas, more than any other offering you might make. Ma'at isn't some force trying to balance things, it is a state that we should strive for in order to make the world function the best way it can.
Frankly, as a devotee of Sekhmet and Ma'at, primarily, I'd consider it downright stupid to bring issues of ma'at to the Netjeru for solving without having done my damndest to resolve things myself. After all, trying to dump my responsibilities on others isn't exactly ma'at either.

Obviously we are separated by demominational differences.  Cheesy

The way I see it is that Ma'at is at work on all the various levels of existence.  We strive to keep ourselves balanced mentally, physically and spiritually. We want to keep harmony with our friends and family while we try to balance work and the pressures of day to day life. We also want to find our place in the world and how we can help or make a difference. We struggle with balancing our human needs with those of the environment.  In these ways we are upholding Ma'at.

But, Ma'at doesn't need us all the time. Ma'at is an energy force (deity) all her own, with or without us. For example, we may not understand the reason for a natural disaster or how the Earth is balancing itself with such an action. But we know we are needed in the aftermath to help those who may now need assistance in finding shelter or medical attention.

There have been times in my life when I think - why did this have to happen? Only to dicsover the reason later. Sometimes X & Y have to happen in order for Z follow, but we cannot always see this.

So, getting back to revenge. Revenge, is usually a desire to "get even" where you are letting your emotions and anger get the best of you. It may not necessarily be the best course of action for a situation. In the case of my friend who was unjustly terminated from his job, putting a revenge curse on the boss really wouldn't help at all. Except to make us feel better that the boss was now suffering too - pretty petty when it comes down to it.  A better way to uphold Ma'at here would be to help my friend find a new job and offer support however he may need it. But, bringing the situation to the attention of Ma'at, by saying, here's what happened, we think this guy needs to learn a lesson, you are still upholding Ma'at by asking the deity to work within the framework of an order that is unseen and unknown to you.

So, hopefully that explains how I see it anyway.
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« Reply #22: February 02, 2008, 12:13:02 pm »

Frankly, speaking as a Kemetic, I think you totally just totally missed the point of ma'at. It is *our* responsibility to uphold ma'at - to not only act in accordance with ma'at ourselves, but to intervene where she is being offended. The upholding of ma'at is our primary offering to the Netjeru, it is how we feed Their kas, more than any other offering you might make. Ma'at isn't some force trying to balance things, it is a state that we should strive for in order to make the world function the best way it can.

Frankly, as a devotee of Sekhmet and Ma'at, primarily, I'd consider it downright stupid to bring issues of ma'at to the Netjeru for solving without having done my damndest to resolve things myself. After all, trying to dump my responsibilities on others isn't exactly ma'at either.

As a more general response to the thread, coming from the above perspective: we all have a responsibility to ma'at, and so if you act against me, I do have an obligation to respond to that. Matter of fact, if you act against Joe Q. Random on the street and I have the ability to interfere, I have an obligation to act. It's not a matter of satisfying my own desires, it's a matter of helping society run well, which also means that while I have to act, I also have to keep my actions in line with what is reasonable. Again: justice rather than revenge.

--Chabas
This is spot on to how the ancient Egyptians seemed to have viewed ma'at too. Nicely done, Chabas.

Ma'at can take care of Herself, but upholding ma'at, and intervening when She is stepped on, is my duty as a Kemetic, in my opinion.

I don't agree with revenge, but I do believe wholeheartedly in my duty to uphold ma'at to the best of my ability. Every once in a while that involves kicking the proverbial crap out of someone. I think inaction is against ma'at if you could have acted and chose not to because you've tossed it at the Netjeru's feet. It reminds of a person who is able to work but unwilling, so lives off the hard work of others.

I'd also like to add that my thoughts aren't directed at Nile_Lily. I was just blown away by Chabas' excellent explanation of ma'at.
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« Reply #23: February 02, 2008, 12:49:40 pm »

I've always had more of "an eye for an eye" mentality than "turn the other cheek."  If someone wrongs me I wouldn't hesitate to get my revenge.  I would make the individual suffer about the same amount that I did.  I wouldn't ask a god to do it for me.  I would ask them for strength and guidance in seeking vengeance but never dump it into their hands.  When it comes to revenge it is best if made by hand and served cold.
  I agree.  I'm the same way.
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« Reply #24: February 02, 2008, 02:06:47 pm »

But, Ma'at doesn't need us all the time. Ma'at is an energy force (deity) all her own, with or without us. For example, we may not understand the reason for a natural disaster or how the Earth is balancing itself with such an action. But we know we are needed in the aftermath to help those who may now need assistance in finding shelter or medical attention.

<snippage for space>

So, hopefully that explains how I see it anyway

And you're basing that on... what?

Here's the thing: time and time again, I see you using Kemetic terms for things, and then defining them in ways that very different from the definitions that Egyptology has come to based on years and years of researching this (in case of ma'at, Jan Assman has a great work out on the subject, entitled simply "Ma'at", which is what I base most of my ideas on). Now I know what you're going to say - you're basing this on personal gnosis. But personal gnosis doesn't fly when you're directly contradicting the facts we do have.

Frankly, the fact you're doing this while claiming the label of Kemeticism is particularly offensive to me. Kemeticism places particular value on the use of the correct word for what you're trying to say, because our words are how we create the world. Our words are our magic, in a very literal sense - heka is based on this very principle, that through naming things and describing things, we create them. The Egyptians refused to use a full image of a scorpion in their writing, since it might bring danger to them as they would create a venomous being. Giving that words and their meaning are that central to Kemetic thought, I don't see how anyone with a substantial knowledge of Kemetic thought can redefine words as they go and still claim the label.

--Chabas
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« Reply #25: February 02, 2008, 07:01:36 pm »

And you're basing that on... what?
Here's the thing: time and time again, I see you using Kemetic terms for things, and then defining them in ways that very different from the definitions that Egyptology has come to based on years and years of researching this (in case of ma'at, Jan Assman has a great work out on the subject, entitled simply "Ma'at", which is what I base most of my ideas on). Now I know what you're going to say - you're basing this on personal gnosis. But personal gnosis doesn't fly when you're directly contradicting the facts we do have.
Frankly, the fact you're doing this while claiming the label of Kemeticism is particularly offensive to me. Kemeticism places particular value on the use of the correct word for what you're trying to say, because our words are how we create the world. Our words are our magic, in a very literal sense - heka is based on this very principle, that through naming things and describing things, we create them. The Egyptians refused to use a full image of a scorpion in their writing, since it might bring danger to them as they would create a venomous being. Giving that words and their meaning are that central to Kemetic thought, I don't see how anyone with a substantial knowledge of Kemetic thought can redefine words as they go and still claim the label.

Like I said, denominational differences.  I know plenty of Christians who aren't considered "real Christians" by other Christian groups.  So if I am not considered a true Kemetic by some, then so be it.

I am truly sorry if I offend you in any way.  I don't expect everyone to agree with with me, and I don't even mind standing alone.   I generally try to make it clear in my posts when these are my interpretations and definitions, how I see things. I don't claim to be a by-the-book recon. I do claim to be a solitary practitioner, because I realize to some, I  seem rather unorthodox.  I base a lot of my beliefs on folk customs and practices that are still around today, despite the influences of Christianity and Islam.

I am aware of the many western interpretations of Kemetic thought and beliefs, it's just that often I don't agree with them.  It is not that I am pulling definitions or beliefs out of thin air, I have done my homework. It's just that I truly don't think westerners (even learned ones)  always understand the ancient Egyptian mindset very well.   As for words, well, there are some ancient texts and folk practices where spells and rites call for complete silence, not using any words at all. (see Omm Sety's Living Egypt, Surviving Folkways from Pharaonic Times)

Anyway, I really don't think this is the right place for such a debate as it is getting way off topic. Maybe we could move this discussion to the Kemetic board if there is enough interest?
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« Reply #26: February 02, 2008, 08:09:19 pm »

Anyway, I really don't think this is the right place for such a debate as it is getting way off topic. Maybe we could move this discussion to the Kemetic board if there is enough interest?

The Kemetic SIG or, since you're both Full Members, the Pagan Religions folder (in the Full Members area) would be excellent places to start a thread on the subject.  I suspect you might get a few of the other Kemetics on the board involved if you did so, although obviously I can't speak for anyone.
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« Reply #27: February 04, 2008, 08:31:27 pm »


I'd have to agree with Nile_Lily...I think it is more of a personal thing -more of what is in you own belief system.
I am pretty passive and usually think to myself later "Well, that was a mean thing to do" or "I should have said this or that".

But when it comes to direct revenge I think that is creating a path of destruction, so to speak. Then the war begins. I much rather leave it to the universe to decide the fate of the wrong doer.

Bad people generally do bad things. Bad things usually befriend bad people because they are already miserable and expect bad things to happen. When they expect it to happen they pretty much 'will it' to happen and want of course want everyone to share in their misery -so, they do bad things to you so you're miserable with them. Misery loves company.

Example. A man ran over my best dog with a semi. Not so much as an "I'm sorry" We tried to take him to court to return to us what was due -she was worth $4,000 but we were asking for the buying price of her. Nothing -no one would touch it. It's just a dog. So I left it up to a higher source and within a week his combine had broke down. Which of course costs thousands to repair. So.....gotcha anyway!

And I did nothing...said nothing...and can sleep with a clear mind.



 
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« Reply #28: February 04, 2008, 09:24:03 pm »

Do you think its right personally: to exact revenge? Or does any one follow the concept of turning the other cheek?  Does any one go to the gods for retribution such as Nemesis?  I appreciate any input.

Without commenting on the debate between Chabas and Nile_Lily, I would say that ma'at for me lies somewhere in the middle road. It is my responsibility to uphold order and good conduct but there is a point where my involvement would just muddle things. I can't see all the players on the field, so to speak, so it would be best left to those who know the whole field and the rules of the game.

But what about the other side, the receiving end of revenge. Sometimes you just have to take your lumps because you've well and truly effed up. Is this an act of the gods or something else?
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« Reply #29: February 05, 2008, 01:16:55 am »


Autumns_Rose, could you please remember to leave the quote code in when responding to a post?  Thank you!
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