rules...etc. (Silver Ravenwolf)

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[littleowl]

I KNOW NOT VERY MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE ALL OF WHAT SILVER RAVENWOLF SAYS IN HER BOOKS BUT WHEN I STARTED OUT I STARTED OUT WITH HER AND SHE IS A REALLY GOOD REFERENCE FOR THE YOUNGER KIDS TO START OUT. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DON'T LIKE HER THOUGH, YOU BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT TO. YOU WILL NEVER LOOSE YOUR POWERS,THEY WERE GIVEN TO YOU FOR A RWASON AND YOU CAN DO ANYTHING YOU WANT SO WHY DO WE HAVE TO HAVE RULES? RAVENWOLF BELIEVES THE WAY SHE DOES SO WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE TO PUT HER DOWN WHEN THAT JUST HER SPIRITUAL BELIEFS, WE REALLY DON'T HAVE RULES EXCEPT TO BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!!!

[Nyktipolos]

Going to bypass the commenting on using all caps (I'm sure others will comment on that)...

Most people (including myself) do not believe Mama Silver is a good primary source because what she writes tends to cover every at all possible without any depth, teaches teenagers thats its okay to lie to your parents since Silver will really only listen to you, and gives out the tone that what she is writing Is Right And Anything Else Is Wrong.

Not to make her more of a "speshful snowflake" than she already is, but I firmly believe she was one of those people who spawned an entire generation of fluffy bunnies by preaching "the light" and "The Burning Times". Not to mention I can't take a person who names themselves (I'm assuming she named herself this) Silver Ravenwolf. It sounds like a name out of a bad name generator.

And for a less cynical and snarky response, here's Lark's list on a forum she runs on "Why We Don't Recommend Silver Ravenwolf". I suggest reading the articles and choosing for yourself. http://www.branwenscauldron.org/community/viewtopic.php?t=4681

[littleowl]

Going to bypass the commenting on using all caps (I'm sure others will comment on that)...

Most people (including myself) do not believe Mama Silver is a good primary source because what she writes tends to cover every at all possible without any depth, teaches teenagers thats its okay to lie to your parents since Silver will really only listen to you, and gives out the tone that what she is writing Is Right And Anything Else Is Wrong.

Not to make her more of a "speshful snowflake" than she already is, but I firmly believe she was one of those people who spawned an entire generation of fluffy bunnies by preaching "the light" and "The Burning Times". Not to mention I can't take a person who names themselves (I'm assuming she named herself this) Silver Ravenwolf. It sounds like a name out of a bad name generator.

And for a less cynical and snarky response, here's Lark's list on a forum she runs on "Why We Don't Recommend Silver Ravenwolf". I suggest reading the articles and choosing for yourself. http://www.branwenscauldron.org/community/viewtopic.php?t=4681

YOU HAVE TO BE OPEN MINDED I GUESS. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN OPEN MINDED AND BELIEVED WHAT I WANTED BECAUSE THERE IS NEVER A CERTAIN WAY TO DO THINGS. I SUPPOSE OTHER PEOPLE WILL BELIVE EVERYTHING THEY SEE OR ARE TAUGHT LIKE CHRISTIANITY. TEENAGERS, I STILL THINK ARE JUST FINE TO START OUT WITH HER BOOKS,AS LONG AS THEY ARE OPEN MINDED, AND HAVE KIND OF STARTED TO FIGURE THERESELVES OUT. I CAN DEFINATLY SEE WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM ,BUT I STILL DONT UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE THINK EVERYONE HAS TO BE PERFECT WITH THE BELIEFS. WE BELIEVE IN WHAT WE FEEL SPIRITUALLY, WHY TRY TO SAY SOMEONE IS WRONG?

[Sine Silvering]

I KNOW NOT VERY MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE ALL OF WHAT SILVER RAVENWOLF SAYS IN HER BOOKS BUT WHEN I STARTED OUT I STARTED OUT WITH HER AND SHE IS A REALLY GOOD REFERENCE FOR THE YOUNGER KIDS TO START OUT. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DON'T LIKE HER THOUGH, YOU BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT TO. YOU WILL NEVER LOOSE YOUR POWERS,THEY WERE GIVEN TO YOU FOR A RWASON AND YOU CAN DO ANYTHING YOU WANT SO WHY DO WE HAVE TO HAVE RULES? RAVENWOLF BELIEVES THE WAY SHE DOES SO WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE TO PUT HER DOWN WHEN THAT JUST HER SPIRITUAL BELIEFS, WE REALLY DON'T HAVE RULES EXCEPT TO BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!!!

First, please don't type in all capital letters.  It's hard to read and online it's perceived as shouting. 

Second, we aren't fond of $RW's books because they are shallow and they teach children that lying to their parents is a good thing, notwithstanding the centuries-old teachings that magic-workers must not devalue their words, for it is their words that form their magic. 

She takes things that many people hold as sacred and special and reduces them to junior high school games. 

Silver thinks that you can take a Christian folk charm, change the name of the deity upon which one calls and expect it to work just as well... which implies that deities are identical, interchangable parts, malleable to human whim.  I suspect she's an atheist, myself; she clearly doesn't consistently perceive what she calls gods to be Higher Powers the same way religious people do.  She treats Them disrespectfully, like battery packs for spellwork instead of Mighty Ones Who love us and teach us how to care for ourselves.

And maybe you think you don't have any rules, but you do, and everyone else does, too.  It's a human thing to do. 


JMHO, of course; YMMV.

[littleowl]

First, please don't type in all capital letters.  It's hard to read and online it's perceived as shouting. 

Second, we aren't fond of $RW's books because they are shallow and they teach children that lying to their parents is a good thing, notwithstanding the centuries-old teachings that magic-workers must not devalue their words, for it is their words that form their magic. 

She takes things that many people hold as sacred and special and reduces them to junior high school games. 

Silver thinks that you can take a Christian folk charm, change the name of the deity upon which one calls and expect it to work just as well... which implies that deities are identical, interchangable parts, malleable to human whim.  I suspect she's an atheist, myself; she clearly doesn't consistently perceive what she calls gods to be Higher Powers the same way religious people do.  She treats Them disrespectfully, like battery packs for spellwork instead of Mighty Ones Who love us and teach us how to care for ourselves.

And maybe you think you don't have any rules, but you do, and everyone else does, too.  It's a human thing to do. 


JMHO, of course; YMMV.

MY KEYBOARD IS BROKEN I HAVE TO GET A NEW ONE TOMORROW SO RIGHT NOW I HAVE TO WRITE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.
PEOPLE NEVER HAVE RULES IN WHAT THEY BELEVE OR HOW THEY BELIEVE. YOU WONT JUST NOT BE A WICCAN IF YOU DO DRUGS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT YOU WERE GIVEN POWER FOR A REASON AND IT CANT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU. I SEE WHERE YOUR COMING FROM ABOUT SRW BUT IF YOU ARE OPEN MINDED ABOUT THINGS YOU CAN SEE WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM EVEN IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY SAY. AND ARENT MOST PAGANS OPEN MINDED TO SEE ALL PERSPECTIVES. TEENAGERS ARE FINE WITH STARTING OUT WITH HER BECAUSE WHEN MOST PEOPLE START OUT LEARNING ITS JUST A JUNIOR HIGH GAME UNTIL YOU GET TO REALIZE OTHERWISE. WHEN I WAS YOUNGER I USED TO THINK O0O0O LET ME LOOK IN SRW BOOK AND JUST DO A SPELL BUT AFTER I STARTED LEARNING I LEARNED THERE WAS MORE TO THIS THAN JUST DOING A SPELL.

[Vale]

MY KEYBOARD IS BROKEN I HAVE TO GET A NEW ONE TOMORROW SO RIGHT NOW I HAVE TO WRITE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.

Rather off topic here but Windows has an "On Screen Keyboard" function so you can "type " using a mouse.

If you are using XP you can access it from Programs/ Accessories/Accessibility. Instructions for other Windows versions may be a little different.

[RandallS]

I KNOW NOT VERY MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE ALL OF WHAT SILVER RAVENWOLF SAYS IN HER BOOKS BUT WHEN I STARTED OUT I STARTED OUT WITH HER AND SHE IS A REALLY GOOD REFERENCE FOR THE YOUNGER KIDS TO START OUT.

Please get your keyboard fixed before posting much on this board.

As for Silver Ravenwolf, her books are full of factual errors like her proclamation in her first book that there is no such thing as a Satanic witch. They are poorly organized. Her examples of what she does/have done often contradict her moral statements. Her tone talks down to people. Etc.

RAVENWOLF BELIEVES THE WAY SHE DOES SO WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE TO PUT HER DOWN WHEN THAT JUST HER SPIRITUAL BELIEFS, WE REALLY DON'T HAVE RULES EXCEPT TO BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!!!

Because we get tired of having to try to unteach her misinformation to people who have read her books and mistakenly assumed that things she said that were not complete or inaccurate were in fact the one true way.

[Finn]

TEENAGERS ARE FINE WITH STARTING OUT WITH HER BECAUSE WHEN MOST PEOPLE START OUT LEARNING ITS JUST A JUNIOR HIGH GAME UNTIL YOU GET TO REALIZE OTHERWISE. WHEN I WAS YOUNGER I USED TO THINK O0O0O LET ME LOOK IN SRW BOOK AND JUST DO A SPELL BUT AFTER I STARTED LEARNING I LEARNED THERE WAS MORE TO THIS THAN JUST DOING A SPELL.

Speaking as a former teen seeker (and one who has never read SRW)--not all teenagers have that same mindset when they are first starting out, and I think they'd be better off without having that mindset in the first place.
 

[Dania]

Speaking as a former teen seeker (and one who has never read SRW)--not all teenagers have that same mindset when they are first starting out, and I think they'd be better off without having that mindset in the first place.
 

Speaking as a former teen seeker who HAS read (and started out with) SRW...I wish I hadn't. Had I found something more mature and concrete at that age...well hell I might have ended up in a very different place. I can't say if that would have been good or bad, but not following SRW's advice could have saved me quite a few embarrassing situations.  Not to mention I had to actively 'unlearn' a LOT of misconceptions that I had. (for example, I somehow managed to twist her version of "harm none" into "Karma is gonna get you if you eat meat". Now, I just cannot live a healthy life without meat. I have blood sugar issues. I NEED meat. It put me in quite an ethical quandary. )

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

WE REALLY DON'T HAVE RULES EXCEPT TO BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!!!

Er - since when?  What rule is this?  From where?

That isn't my list of rules by any stretch.

In fact, it's a pretty useless "one rule" to go by.  If all you do is believe in yourself, what happens when you have to interact with other people?  The rules of nature?  Gravity?

Personally, I believe in reality.  I'm part of that .. but so's a lot of other things.

[Melamphoros]

Personally, I believe in reality.  I'm part of that .. but so's a lot of other things.

My #1 rule is to believe in reality, which includes historical accuracy and anything that is a direct opposite of what Mama $ilver says.

To the op,

To continue in the direction Finn and Dania were going, I was a teenage seeker who never read Mama $ilver.  I started by looking around on the internet and found that most of the sites I visited recommended Cunningham over $ilver so that's who I read (in fact, his Guide for the Solitary Practitioner is the only book on Wicca that I ever owned and it still has a prominent place on my bookcase even though I'm no longer Wiccan).  It was after I read that book that I found my first pagan message board and found out why Cunningham was recommended more than $ilver.

[Sine Silvering]

MY KEYBOARD IS BROKEN I HAVE TO GET A NEW ONE TOMORROW SO RIGHT NOW I HAVE TO WRITE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.

Okay.  But I hope you get the new one right away! 

PEOPLE NEVER HAVE RULES IN WHAT THEY BELEVE OR HOW THEY BELIEVE. YOU WONT JUST NOT BE A WICCAN IF YOU DO DRUGS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT YOU WERE GIVEN POWER FOR A REASON AND IT CANT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU.

Okay, clearly you have a different set of assumptions and we're going to have to talk for a while to figure this out.

(1)  Everyone has rules.  There are rules for belonging to any group and if you don't belong to one group you belong to another; its a normal human thing.

(2)  I have no idea what this bit means.  There is no prohibition in traditional Wicca against using drugs; there are strong social sanctions against using them casually or just for fun:  medication is the descendant of ancient herbalism and part of the practice, and certain mind-altering substances have always been part of spiritual work all over the world.  Tobacco was a sacred herb to certain Native American tribes; they used it to communicate with the Higher Powers they reverenced, and to sanctify certain human events, like peace agreements.  They didn't get cancer from it because they respected the power of the herb.  Treat it with disrespect, use it casually, and look what you get...

I don't know what you mean when you use power in this context; Wicca, for example, is a religion.  Ceremonial magic doesn't assume anyone has any inborn power; manipulating energy is a hard-won skill.

I SEE WHERE YOUR COMING FROM ABOUT SRW BUT IF YOU ARE OPEN MINDED ABOUT THINGS YOU CAN SEE WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM EVEN IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY SAY. AND ARENT MOST PAGANS OPEN MINDED TO SEE ALL PERSPECTIVES.

If your mind is too open, your brains fall out.

I may be able to see many perspectives but that doesn't mean I approve of them; I can kind of twist around enough to see the POV of a Wahhabist terrorist, but I can't approve of their use of Koran or jihad:  I don't think anyone has the right to impose their religion's teachings on anyone else, and certainly not with bombs.

There's no merit or gold star for those who vapidly state that everyone's POV and belief set is all right.  They aren't.

TEENAGERS ARE FINE WITH STARTING OUT WITH HER BECAUSE WHEN MOST PEOPLE START OUT LEARNING ITS JUST A JUNIOR HIGH GAME UNTIL YOU GET TO REALIZE OTHERWISE. WHEN I WAS YOUNGER I USED TO THINK O0O0O LET ME LOOK IN SRW BOOK AND JUST DO A SPELL BUT AFTER I STARTED LEARNING I LEARNED THERE WAS MORE TO THIS THAN JUST DOING A SPELL.

It's NOT all right for teens or younger kids to start out with a teacher who is condescending and teaches them untruths.  Also, most mature pagans, just like parents in other religions, are firmly of the opinion that no one has the right to subvert their children away from the family's religion.  Her "Mama Silver" schtick is offensive and I'm not even a parent!  I can't imagine how offended I'd be if someone talked like that to my children!

Magic is real and it is powerful.  Playing with magic as if it is a junior high school game is both disrespectful and dangerous.  As Spike said, that's the thing with magic:  there's ALWAYS consequences.  ALWAYS.  And if the magic is done without forethought and care, you can get unintended consequences that can cause harm where it was never intended.  What a cruel and thoughtless thing to teach someone else's children!

Again, JMHO; YMMV.

[Mandi]

MY KEYBOARD IS BROKEN I HAVE TO GET A NEW ONE TOMORROW SO RIGHT NOW I HAVE TO WRITE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.
PEOPLE NEVER HAVE RULES IN WHAT THEY BELEVE OR HOW THEY BELIEVE. YOU WONT JUST NOT BE A WICCAN IF YOU DO DRUGS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT YOU WERE GIVEN POWER FOR A REASON AND IT CANT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU. I SEE WHERE YOUR COMING FROM ABOUT SRW BUT IF YOU ARE OPEN MINDED ABOUT THINGS YOU CAN SEE WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM EVEN IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY SAY. AND ARENT MOST PAGANS OPEN MINDED TO SEE ALL PERSPECTIVES. TEENAGERS ARE FINE WITH STARTING OUT WITH HER BECAUSE WHEN MOST PEOPLE START OUT LEARNING ITS JUST A JUNIOR HIGH GAME UNTIL YOU GET TO REALIZE OTHERWISE. WHEN I WAS YOUNGER I USED TO THINK O0O0O LET ME LOOK IN SRW BOOK AND JUST DO A SPELL BUT AFTER I STARTED LEARNING I LEARNED THERE WAS MORE TO THIS THAN JUST DOING A SPELL.

That's a bit of a hedonistic perspective.  I can do whatever I want that makes me happy because I am doing it for a higher purpose although I may not be aware of what it is.  You are justifying your means based upon your ends - and you don't know what those ends are yet.

Limiting myself causes me pain.  Be it emotional, physical; mental, related to self denial and impulse control... thus it must be a case of useless rules being inflicted on my natural goodness.

This is like a monkey with a gun.  Oh hmmmm... lets see what this does.  It wouldn't work if it wasn't supposed to.  They wouldn't have dropped it in the cage if it wasn't for me.

One does not need to be able to 'see all perspectives' to know that some perspectives are immature and illogical and will hopefully be outgrown in time before they gain the scope to be destructive on a larger scale.

Do you feel obligated to embrace the perspective of a liar? A theif? A rapist perhaps?  Oh but they are who they are for a reason too - so maybe all the negativity in the world is just meant to be that way and really these people are contributing to the lives and happiness of the people the harm we just don't know how yet.

as for $RW, she is a shortcut means of learning something that should be respected more than taking the easiest road to feeling powerful. 

[Jenett]

RAVENWOLF BELIEVES THE WAY SHE DOES SO WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE TO PUT HER DOWN WHEN THAT JUST HER SPIRITUAL BELIEFS, WE REALLY DON'T HAVE RULES EXCEPT TO BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!!!

Hi there.

The thing is, I do think there are rules in Wicca and other paths.

But my real issue with Ravenwolf's work isn't about that. Some of it is about her ethics as stated in her books - she talks about lying to parents. There are places where she talks about something being unethical - like manipulating someone else's mind or emotions - and then a few chapters later gives a spell to do just that.

The other two reasons I don't recommend her work are a little more complicated. First, I believe that there are multiple paths and ways to do things. But I also believe that there are some methods that are not good. Some of those not-good methods are just ineffective. Some of them can be dangerous without adequate preparation or understanding. Some can be fine for some people, and a problem for others.

Think of using herbs. Lavender is a commonly recommended herb, and there's many things it's useful for. There's some stuff it just won't do any good for. And there's some stuff it's the wrong choice. There are also people like my friend, who are very allergic to it. If I'm talking to people about magical or ritual work that might have some consequences, I want to make sure they're using the best resources possible.

And second - slightly more simple - I don't recommend Ravenwolf because these days, there are far better resources out there. Resources that are beginner friendly, but that also help people grow and develop. That don't teach them things they'll have to relearn to interact with healthy established groups. That show a consistent sense of ethics and practices. That explain why something is done a certain way - not because it's the author's idea of 'best' - but because it's got a reasoning behind it that can be (and is) explained.

[Dania]

Think of using herbs. Lavender is a commonly recommended herb, and there's many things it's useful for. There's some stuff it just won't do any good for. And there's some stuff it's the wrong choice. There are also people like my friend, who are very allergic to it. If I'm talking to people about magical or ritual work that might have some consequences, I want to make sure they're using the best resources possible.

That's a very good point. I think it's *very* important for anyone 'teaching' anything to make the student aware of the potential risks before doing something. That is hard to do in book format, but not impossible. (You can't ask your readers questions to find out if this is the right thing to teach them; you just have to provide the information and hope that they'll use their best judgment, which we all know, people don't always do.)

Silver's "everything will be just fine so long as you have a good attitude" and "don't bother with proper timing/actually thinking about it, just add "may all astrological correspondences be correct for this working. With harm to none! so mote it be!!" and everything will be OK. You know the stars will change because Mama Silver said so...(I for one am really glad they DON'T. Gods that could really screw things up.) attitude pisses me off, honestly.

"Go ahead and do something stupid....so long as you meant well nothing bad will happen..."

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