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Author Topic: Welsh Gods and Goddesses  (Read 17472 times)
Sparrow
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« Reply #30: April 05, 2007, 01:56:21 pm »

I think what might be easier than typing up a god list is making a list of honored beings, and specifying on a case by case basis whether they are god, hero, etcetera. Ambiguities and differences in SPG can be focused on better that way, than making a million lists which all venn diagram each other.
I'm not sure I follow you.
Wouldn't I still need to clarify who the gods and heros actually are?
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« Reply #31: April 05, 2007, 02:02:33 pm »

I'm not sure I follow you.
Wouldn't I still need to clarify who the gods and heros actually are?

Yes, but you'd be able to say for ones that are ambiguous "we think he was historically honored as a hero, but some RCR's feel that he has more aspects of a god" and not have to decide one way or another, letting the practitioner decide.
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« Reply #32: April 05, 2007, 02:05:22 pm »


Like Beli Mawr for example. Can he be both a mortal and a god at the same time? I wouldn't have thought so but I think I'm getting conflicting information. Which is right? God or mortal?
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« Reply #33: April 05, 2007, 02:07:24 pm »

Like Beli Mawr for example. Can he be both a mortal and a god at the same time? I wouldn't have thought so but I think I'm getting conflicting information. Which is right? God or mortal?

Exactly- you'd be able to put down both sets of conflicting information, and let the reader decide for themselves.
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« Reply #34: April 05, 2007, 02:08:10 pm »

Yes, but you'd be able to say for ones that are ambiguous "we think he was historically honored as a hero, but some RCR's feel that he has more aspects of a god" and not have to decide one way or another, letting the practitioner decide.


Oh I see what you mean, now.
Would that be acceptable to everyone, I wonder?  How reconstructionist are we wanting to be?
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Juni
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« Reply #35: April 05, 2007, 02:13:28 pm »

Oh I see what you mean, now.
Would that be acceptable to everyone, I wonder?  How reconstructionist are we wanting to be?

I think if the being is undisputed as a god or hero, then you could mark them down as such. If the information leans one way, but there's some evidence towards the other, put them down as what most evidence says but note that some evidence goes to the contrary, and if the evidence just doesn't give any clear idea, then say that. I think as long as there are sources to back up where we're coming from with our god/hero delineation, or clearly marked UPG, we should be fine.
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« Reply #36: April 05, 2007, 02:19:38 pm »

I think if the being is undisputed as a god or hero, then you could mark them down as such. If the information leans one way, but there's some evidence towards the other, put them down as what most evidence says but note that some evidence goes to the contrary, and if the evidence just doesn't give any clear idea, then say that. I think as long as there are sources to back up where we're coming from with our god/hero delineation, or clearly marked UPG, we should be fine.

Yeah, maybe that would work. I'm holding out for someone to come in who is  really up the welsh mythology. I'm really concerned about my ability at this point to be offering up credible information.  I think I need some better sources. Whether or not I would be able to understand those sources is another big question. Cheesy

Thanks for that insight, Juni. Maybe that's the way to go.
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« Reply #37: April 05, 2007, 03:06:30 pm »

I think if the being is undisputed as a god or hero, then you could mark them down as such. If the information leans one way, but there's some evidence towards the other, put them down as what most evidence says but note that some evidence goes to the contrary, and if the evidence just doesn't give any clear idea, then say that. I think as long as there are sources to back up where we're coming from with our god/hero delineation, or clearly marked UPG, we should be fine.

Juni saves the day again.  Wink  Thanks for the suggestion.
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« Reply #38: April 05, 2007, 05:32:42 pm »

Yeah, maybe that would work. I'm holding out for someone to come in who is  really up the welsh mythology. I'm really concerned about my ability at this point to be offering up credible information.  I think I need some better sources. Whether or not I would be able to understand those sources is another big question. Cheesy

Well, you could always buy a copy of the Mabinogion. It's not expensive. Wink Got my Everyman copy for $7 (standard price!).

It's not at all hard to understand, either. It's translated into modern English, apart from the occasional "lo" and "yonder."

But yeah, reading the stories in their original context really helps you get a feel for how much of what we've heard might be modern interpretation (or not). As Garnet said, if you read the book, you would never know that Annwn was an "otherworldly" place from the text itself. But scholars have "read into" the story pagan undertones that would suggest that, judging from other folklore. And we have to remember that the stories were recorded by Christians, who actually record these supposedly "godly" characters saying "By God!" from time to time.

For example, Arawn: "'Between me and God,' said he, 'thine own ignorance and discourtesy.'" And, "'That,' said he, 'was discourtesy, and though I will not take vengeance upon thee, between me and God,' said he, 'I will do thee dishonour to the value of a hundred stags.'"

Christians may have had reason to de-emphasize the divinity of these characters. But I don't know what the average scholar's reasoning is for finding divinity in these characters, other than "it's obviously not a Christian story."
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Foxglove: Well, it felt good at the time. Empowering.
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« Reply #39: April 05, 2007, 06:18:13 pm »

Well, you could always buy a copy of the Mabinogion. It's not expensive. Wink Got my Everyman copy for $7 (standard price!).

It's not at all hard to understand, either. It's translated into modern English, apart from the occasional "lo" and "yonder."

But yeah, reading the stories in their original context really helps you get a feel for how much of what we've heard might be modern interpretation (or not). As Garnet said, if you read the book, you would never know that Annwn was an "otherworldly" place from the text itself. But scholars have "read into" the story pagan undertones that would suggest that, judging from other folklore. And we have to remember that the stories were recorded by Christians, who actually record these supposedly "godly" characters saying "By God!" from time to time.

For example, Arawn: "'Between me and God,' said he, 'thine own ignorance and discourtesy.'" And, "'That,' said he, 'was discourtesy, and though I will not take vengeance upon thee, between me and God,' said he, 'I will do thee dishonour to the value of a hundred stags.'"

Christians may have had reason to de-emphasize the divinity of these characters. But I don't know what the average scholar's reasoning is for finding divinity in these characters, other than "it's obviously not a Christian story."

I have the Mabinogion (borrowed out to my Sister at the moment) I'll have to get it back asap. I have another one on order from Amazon at the moment that includes other myths in addition to the Mabinogion. It was my understanding that only some of the Gods worshipped in Wales come from The Mabinogion. And isn't there some critisism lately of Lady Charlotte Guests interpretations? 

What would your Diety list look like? The list from timeless myths in link I posted a few posts back seems to be a common one.
http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/welsh.html
Is this a good one to stick with?
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Sparrow
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« Reply #40: April 05, 2007, 09:58:17 pm »

Well, you could always buy a copy of the Mabinogion. It's not expensive. Wink Got my Everyman copy for $7 (standard price!).


It's been a lot of years since I read the Mabinogion. I wasn't particularly interested in it at the time. It was recommended reading or something. I abandoned all religion when I was about 20 but it's become important to me again in the last year.

I ordered Mabinogi and Other Medievil Welsh Tales by Ford  a couple of weeks ago. It should be here soon. I'm really looking forward to reading it. I'm sure I'll take more away from it this time.
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« Reply #41: April 06, 2007, 11:15:40 am »

I've had the same experience, and I agree about the "archetype" thing.
That is, or used to be, a perfectly good and extremely useful word, whose usefulness has been sadly diminished (and indeed tainted) by the monomythologists' insistence that archetypes are necessarily universal.  The "monomyth" concept having been debunked (as Catja has detailed for us over the years), I see no reason why we should be bound by the monomythologists' usage.

I never do like to surrender good and useful words to someone's single narrow (and often ideologically-agenda'd, or just plain self-serving) definition. (A feminist is not necessarily an emasculist.  An eclectic is not necessarily a fluffy bunny.  "Responsible" does not mean "'responsible' for doing as you're told".  One can listen to what someone else says without complying.  I could go on like that all week.)

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« Reply #42: April 07, 2007, 02:34:39 am »

Word, Sunflower. As a feminist, I can certainly agree. Cheesy
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Thessaly: It's time to draw down the moon.
Foxglove: We did this. Or something like this. We had water and salt, not blood. We invoked the goddess in her aspect as the moon. We called down her power...
Thessaly: Did she answer you?
Foxglove: Well, it felt good at the time. Empowering.
Thessaly: Hmph.
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« Reply #43: April 07, 2007, 11:15:32 am »


Can someone ppoint me toward some relyable sources?

Thanks,
Sparrow


Reliable sources?  On this subject? 

UPG - Blodeuwedd comes to me as a Goddess, but that isn't really a source....and there is very very little on her.  I see her as opening the way for Lleu to finish his 'shamanic education' by going through the shapeshiftng that is so common among Celtic figures.  She did not betray him, she opened the way to his transformation.  And he needed help transforming back, which makes me wonder if he had a bit of a problem achieving the whole thing (not the best student maybe?)
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