The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
December 09, 2023, 06:18:10 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 09, 2023, 06:18:10 am

Login with username, password and session length
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Scottish / Irish Crossover  (Read 7047 times)
Last Login:January 24, 2014, 04:19:00 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Gaelic Polytheist
Posts: 119

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #6: April 19, 2008, 06:05:44 pm »

Modern scholarship recognises that Q-Celtic languages were not brought to Scotland from Ireland, rather, Q-Celtic languages were once spoken across the entire British Isles and while the successive phases of the adoption of P-Celtic languages never reached Ireland, they did reach Scotland but didn't entirely engulf it. The Pictish language most likely incorporated Q-Celtic, P-Celtic and pre-Celtic elements. The P-Celtic influence in Scotland didn't extend further than the Highland Line, north and west of which a language we would more accurately call Gaelic than anything else was spoken long before Fergus Mor mac Erc led the Scots to Dalriada at the end of the 4th century CE.

I wouldn't entirely agree with this...Some modern scholars may hold this view, but equally there are those that hold the view that distinguishing P and Q Celtic languages at such an early stage is incorrect, because the differences of the Ps and Qs developed and became pronounced at a relatively late date in the evolution of Celtic languages.

Your assertion about P Celtic influence not reaching beyond the Highland Line doesn't hold true if you accept the evidence of 'pit' placenames for one...and assuming any value can be found in agreeing that Pictish is indeed a P Celtic language like the rest of Britain was until the Goidelic language started gaining influence, as is commonly held. I'd really appreciate any references you might have on this to make sure my information is up to date  Smiley

The Picts were not "shoved" by the Scots anywhere - the kings of Dalriada in fact occupied a subordinate role to the Pictish kings more often than not, and indeed Dalriada was completely overun by the Picts by the middle of the 8th century CE during the reign of the Pictish king Angus mac Fergus (the likely origin of the carved wild boar to be found at Dunadd, the citadel of the Scots of Dalriada - the boar was a prominent Pictish emblem, which indeed was the "Scottish" royal standard until the adoption of the Lion Rampant by William I "the Lion" in the 12th century CE).

The idea of any sort of invasion by the Dalriadans in wholesale terms is lacking in evidence, really. In fact, archaeologically the evidence suggests that cultural influence went from Scotland to Ireland in terms of the types of buildings we find in both areas...The issue of Pictish/Dalriadan politics is hazy at best, as indeed is the reason for the presence of the 'Pictish' boar at Dunadd. Ewan Campbell focuses on this in his book on Dunadd, along with an interesting article about the ogham script found there, which has been partially translated.

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
In a site/blog

Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Scottish or British Mythologies
Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology
elizwrite 4 3557 Last post May 23, 2007, 11:23:28 pm
by elizwrite
Scottish history book suggestion...anyone?
hassMysteria 0 1488 Last post November 16, 2007, 07:44:05 pm
by hassMysteria
Scottish Sources on Brighid
Cauldron Cill
Aster Breo 1 1957 Last post April 25, 2010, 09:31:11 pm
by MadHouseWitch
Books on Scottish Legends
Books and Other Resources
TisiphoneSeraph 7 3857 Last post February 11, 2010, 08:04:15 pm
by -Gwenhwyfar-
Norse & Celtic Crossover? « 1 2 »
Asatru and Heathenry SIG
Thor 19 15588 Last post May 16, 2011, 10:51:29 am
by Maythe
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.084 seconds with 38 queries.