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Author Topic: Secrecy and your religion  (Read 7253 times)
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« Topic Start: April 01, 2007, 08:27:26 am »

What role does secrecy play in your religion?  Why?  What happens if people find out information they're not "ready" for?  What determines readiness?

If you can answer without breaking oath, what is the shape of things that is hidden and why?  (names of gods, initiation rituals, specifics of what happens in rituals?  Other things?)

If this information is risky for people to find out in the wrong order, what is the result of screwing up?

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In FlameKeeping, there is no secrecy.  There are Mysteries, but they're as clearly spelled out as they can be.  The Mystery is in figuring it out for yourself, not in the information.  Sharing information freely is sacred to the religion: even if it's dangerous information, trying to hoard it is much more likely to cause problems than solve them.  But that's my belief, hardly a universal.
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« Reply #1: April 01, 2007, 04:37:44 pm »

I don't have any secrecy in my religion either. I have no reason for it. I might not tell everyone the whole depths of my belief, but that is my personal preference. It's not because they aren't ready to hear it, it's because I'm not ready to share. Nothing is oathbound, and the exchange of ideas is sacred. Smiley

I actually don't believe that being secretive about my beliefs is all that beneficial to me. I mean, people talk about religious freedom and how we may or may not have it (depending on the person's POV). If we are living in fear, we are not free. If we are hiding our beliefs, we are not free. I know more than one person who has lost a great deal because of their beliefs; I have very little to lose and so I choose to live freely and believe freely, because we'll not gain any more freedom by hiding.
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« Reply #2: April 01, 2007, 05:37:07 pm »

What role does secrecy play in your religion?  Why?  What happens if people find out information they're not "ready" for?  What determines readiness?

If you can answer without breaking oath, what is the shape of things that is hidden and why?  (names of gods, initiation rituals, specifics of what happens in rituals?  Other things?)

If this information is risky for people to find out in the wrong order, what is the result of screwing up?

Weeellll... I don't have an... um... organized religion to speak of. I'm basically a pathless Seeker with REALLY obscure deities at my back. So I can't say what role secrecy plays in my religion. I often decline to speak of it to others, but largely simply because they wouldn't understand. (Cauldronites excluded from that group, of course...) So I suppose it's more of a cultural sort of secrecy than anything else. Certainly not a religious one.

Certainly, there are what I would consider, ah, in tradition-terms, "oathbound material", but that's mostly just personal stuff I wouldn't tell anybody but my covenmates. In other words, I wouldn't tell these things to anyone who wasn't already oathbound into my coven or tradition or whatever path I end up on. As you can tell, I'm a solitary at the moment, so that issue's never really come up. Yet.

Without breaking, uh, oath, the shape that which is not told to... *scratches head and shrugs* Outsiders? Well, let's make it outsiders, for lack of a better term... are simply, uh, *cants head* *shrugs* deity stuff. Not names or the like but rather what's happened in the deep astral trips. There's one ritual that I don't reveal, but that's related to the oathbound deity stuff. The rest of my rituals are open - not oathbound.

As for what happens to people if they find out before they're ready? Um, I dunno. That's never happened. Wink What determines readiness? *shrugs* How they deal with things, I suppose. What happens if they screw up the order? *shrugs* There isn't any order yet to my religion, so I couldn't tell you to save my life.

Sorry I couldn't be more informative.  Undecided

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« Reply #3: April 01, 2007, 05:41:50 pm »


Without breaking, uh, oath, the shape that which is not told to... *scratches head and shrugs* Outsiders? Well, let's make it outsiders, for lack of a better term... are simply, uh, *cants head* *shrugs* deity stuff. Not names or the like but rather what's happened in the deep astral trips. There's one ritual that I don't reveal, but that's related to the oathbound deity stuff. The rest of my rituals are open - not oathbound.


I know what you mean here, there are a lot of things in this area that I wouldn't share either. They are religious experiences, but also deeply personal ones. While my beliefs are open, these personal experiences are something I do not share.
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« Reply #4: April 01, 2007, 05:58:46 pm »

I know what you mean here, there are a lot of things in this area that I wouldn't share either. They are religious experiences, but also deeply personal ones. While my beliefs are open, these personal experiences are something I do not share.

*nods* I have the experiences divided into some categories, actually. General, friends, Pagan friends, close friends, covenmates, mate, and over my dead body. Wink

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« Reply #5: April 01, 2007, 06:07:33 pm »

I know what you mean here, there are a lot of things in this area that I wouldn't share either. They are religious experiences, but also deeply personal ones. While my beliefs are open, these personal experiences are something I do not share.

I've got stuff like that too.  It's related to my religion, but it's not *part of the religion* it's *how the religion has interacted with me personally*. Smiley  Everyone has stuff that's private!

OTOH, if I thought it was something someone else could use and grow with, I'd be pretty tempted to share anyway.
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« Reply #6: April 01, 2007, 09:11:08 pm »

What role does secrecy play in your religion?  Why?  What happens if people find out information they're not "ready" for?  What determines readiness?

If you can answer without breaking oath, what is the shape of things that is hidden and why?  (names of gods, initiation rituals, specifics of what happens in rituals?  Other things?)

If this information is risky for people to find out in the wrong order, what is the result of screwing up?
Sometimes, being given knowledge as "information" can actively interfere with apprehending the Mystery.  The student thinks they know, because they have the words/data down pat, and understand it on the "head" level, so they stop working on it, not even realizing they don't have the "heart" and "gut" understanding.  That applies particularly to Mysteries that can, to a fairly large extent, be talked about in words (some are more articulable than others - as I'm sure you, Shadow, have noticed with FlameKeeping's Mysteries), but it can factor in with almost any Mystery.

The measure of readiness for a Mystery is, if they apprehend it as Mystery, "get" it on all three levels of head and heart and gut, well, gee, they must have been ready - there's no "but you can't know that yet!" BS; if they figured it out, that's the proof that "yet" has arrived.  That doesn't mean they've wrung every bit of meaning out of it; Mystery is a process of deepening understanding, so they'll revisit that same Mystery, on new levels, time and again.

There are a few Mysteries that, when I'm working with a student, I'm specifically trying to get them to that readiness.  One in particular is a prerequisite for initiation (and happens to be very articulable, and very subject to "info gets in the way of understanding").  But mostly they're not on any kind of schedule; the practitioner gets 'em when s/he gets 'em.  For that matter, aside from a very few core Mysteries that are integral to LibCraft and what makes it a distinct trad, there's no firm body of "these are the Mysteries".  There are many, many Mysteries; a LibWitch seeks the deeper understanding that Mystery experience brings, in whatever forms it comes to hir.  (Ooh, I'll have to remember that sentence; that should have been in "Principles" all along.)

(A side note, for anyone who's thinking all this "prerequisite for initiation" and "core Mysteries integral to LibCraft" stuff doesn't seem to fit with what "Principles of LibCraft" says about how someone becomes a LibWitch:  there are Mysteries hidden in "Principles"; if one reads it not just as an informational document but as a tool for understanding the trad, one should, at the least, be well on the road to the Mysteries one needs.  "Hidden" really isn't the right word; there's a "read between the lines" aspect but it's not ultra-subtle.)

Moving from Mystery to magic, there are things I don't like to speak of in too much detail unless I'm sure that all who can hear me have a rudimentary amount of background and common sense.  I'm not going to tell someone exactly how I go about walking Between the Worlds outside the protection of the circle, unless I'm reasonably sure they're able to take seriously the caveat that, in that place, one will be confronted by one's unresolved fears (and, in that place, they can kill you).  Those who do take it seriously, whether novice or highly experienced, will either decide not to try it for themselves, or will do all they can to make sure they're properly prepared; either way, they're making an informed and responsible choice.  If I do tell someone exactly how to do it, what I'm telling them will be the complete process - not just the "how to get there" part but the "how to get back" part ("get there/get back" isn't exactly right, but to do better, I'd have to explain the whole thing).

I'm not sure I've explained fully, but it'll have to do.

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« Reply #7: April 02, 2007, 10:15:50 am »

What role does secrecy play in your religion?  Why?  What happens if people find out information they're not "ready" for?  What determines readiness?

If you can answer without breaking oath, what is the shape of things that is hidden and why?  (names of gods, initiation rituals, specifics of what happens in rituals?  Other things?)

If this information is risky for people to find out in the wrong order, what is the result of screwing up?

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Although I'm not a member of a formal tradition, some of the practices in my path aren't things that I talk or write about.  I start to, but then I have this moment where no matter how great the block of text was, concise, well explained I delete it.  It is info that is not to be shared. 

It's more because it's like sharing specifics about a lovers tendencies though.  I feel more like I'm betraying an intimacy.

I've mentioned in other threads that blood sacrifice is a part of my path.  A small one, but nonetheless a facet.  I would say that timing wise once or twice a month is about the average.  I feel perfectly at ease talking about historical blood sacrifice, why it is not a feasible route for the most part in modern society, and that there are places on your body that have higher concentrations of blood vessels, and lower concentrations of nerves. 

I'm good talking about the amount actually being fairly insignificant, barely more than one would use for blood sugar testing, but the means of offering, the prayers that go with; are things I don't talk about.

I'll talk casual magic and ritual all day, but my magic and rituals, as they start to move farther from the pagan standard open are things that I'm less willing to share.  When it was a compilation of widely available information, and it was just my research skills on display, easy to talk about.  I've had eyebrows raised at me for putting 'inappropriate' information into the hands of beginners,  which honestly just cracked me up.  It's like telling someone the basic mechanics of a stick shift, and then putting them behind the wheel of a big rig.  They aren't going to get far.

When it's things that I've found on my own, or been led onto that are slightly off the beaten path, then I guess I'm sort of territorial.  Not in the wont share way, but the since I'm not asking for permission or approval, then there really isn't any reason to share.  That and I don't think most people would want to walk the way I do.  Other than perhaps people who would take it out of context and abuse and disrespect something sacred by making it an expression of their own emotional state rather than a joyful offering of self.
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« Reply #8: April 02, 2007, 08:40:59 pm »

My tradition of Witchcraft is not really oathbound. We're mainly careful to not out a covenmate who isn't publically pagan, and we're not really supposed to talk specifically about what happened in ritual - which makes sense, really... a lot of what happens is valid only for folks who were actually there and felt the energies move.

I'm beginning to study for my 1st degree within my tradition, which works things a bit differently... at initiation, you are a fully functioning priest/ess. The degrees are for those who are called to teach and become a leader within the community. One of our main focuses is as a teaching tradition, so most people do seek the degrees.

So as I start to think about taking on students, I realize that you really can't keep anything hidden from someone who is bound and determined to know. I also realize that any one person's journey is between that person and the Gods... the teacher is just there to smooth the path (or throw up obstacles, whichever the Gods determine is needed).

I don't think there's anything I could teach someone about witchcraft that would be risky... we could argue that it would be dangerous to teach a complete newbie how to invoke an Elemental, but I personally don't think many newbies have enough inherent talent or luck to do something complicated right at an early stage of training... but, for all a teacher may try to shield a student, when you're on a path that's been so published, you can't really keep them from the information when they want it...

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« Reply #9: April 09, 2007, 08:23:24 pm »


Being a solitary practitioner, there are no secrets as such, nor oathbound material. What's 'hidden' I stumble upon by myself, with those "OH!" moments...

However, I do have much that is private. I've noticed myself turning more private as the years go by, discussing generalities, principals, techniques and so forth, but leaving the specifics between me and higher powers. Some of this is pretty obvious stuff. For example, I'm no more willing to describe exactly what wards I'm using than I'm willing to put out to the internet the information on where the spare key to the house is hidden. Some of this is stuff that doesn't translate well into words at all. Much is more of a, well - there's a kind of "comfort time" between doing a given ritual or working and telling something about it publicly, if you know what I mean.

Were I in a group instead of being a solitary practitioner, there might be more of a need to share.
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« Reply #10: April 10, 2007, 06:35:29 pm »

Secrecy extends mostly to me not talking about my religion.  That's about it. If someone were to ask what I believe, explaining would take a while.

Within my path, the only oaths made are those to the gods and to myself.  The only real secrets are the ones I come across and have to figure out. I'm willing to talk about rituals that I do, but since they are fairly basic, there's not much room for secrecy there either, except for the words I speak and maybe a couple of other things I'm forgetting.

So yeah, secrecy isn't a regular bedfellow for me. 
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« Reply #11: May 02, 2007, 01:55:20 am »

What role does secrecy play in your religion?  Why? 

...what is the shape of things that is hidden and why?  (names of gods, initiation rituals, specifics of what happens in rituals?  Other things?)

If this information is risky for people to find out in the wrong order, what is the result of screwing up?

My faith was once a national religion, so not much secrecy there. Tongue

The only secret part of it was the restricted access to the inner sanctum where the statue of the god resided and that part I keep up. My mother is seriously creeped out by my statues (Roll Eyes) and anyone else who comes into my room knows that they aren't to touch anything on my dresser/altar.

As for secrecy of information, the only stuff that is hidden is the stuff you don't research. Tongue

I can't really see there being an order to finding things out - heck, I'm still learning as I go along and probably will until my dying day. The gods come to us, nudge us in the direction of what we need to know, and I'm assuming it's a highly individual thing, based on that person's familiarity with the ancients.
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« Reply #12: May 02, 2007, 07:45:37 am »

If you can answer without breaking oath, what is the shape of things that is hidden and why?  (names of gods, initiation rituals, specifics of what happens in rituals?  Other things?)

Initiations. Samhain. One trad-specific ritual. Some specifics of tradition-shared 'spaces' for lack of a better term: you only get the key to those spaces at a certain point in training, much like a friend giving you a key to their house might.

Things are sometimes kept oathbound for different reasons: in some cases, it's so the experience will have the full impact (initiation). In other cases (Samhain), it's partly for the experience, but even more so people can feel comfortable sharing sometimes hard stuff (grief, memories of loved ones) in security it will go no further. Tradition specific stuff is not revealed until either you become partially responsible for it, or until it's relevant.)

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What role does secrecy play in your religion?  Why?  What happens if people find out information they're not "ready" for?  What determines readiness?

In some cases, it can spoil the experience, or make things 'take' less well. Because it's not always clear how or when that might happen, we want to avoid the possibility when possible. We get a number of people who tend to over-intellectualise: making sure they can't do that by having the experience first helps a lot.

We do have people who get at substantial parts of the oathed trad stuff on their own through experience: if that's the case, we continue to work privately with them, but talk about why X isn't shared quite yet, and with what they're experiencing. The couple of times this has happened, there has definitely been a reason beyond curiousity at play. (I'm not sure anyone just curious and exploring would hit on those specific bits, either.)

Quote
If this information is risky for people to find out in the wrong order, what is the result of screwing up?

Depends. It may make the later experience less deep, and less functional (a potential concern with initiation). It may expose the group to some risk (if, say, someone figures out how to access group shared astral space, before we're entirely sure we're comfortable with that/ that they're going to stick around)

There's also the fact that it's possible to fixate on some kinds of information in order to ignore other kinds of necessary and needed personal work. This one's probably the most dangerous, because it can end up with someone in a situation they're really not ready to deal with, and that can lead to psychological bruising, at the least. This is really an art form: it's hard to have absolutely clear-cut lines, because everyone's different. But we do have a system that we know produces reliable results, and are therefore wary of change.
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« Reply #13: August 25, 2007, 01:50:31 am »

What role does secrecy play in your religion?  Why?

My trad has no oathbound material at all. We're entirely non-initiatory. We have no secret rituals. We are not a mystery cult or secret society. The local authorities and the neighbors know who we are and what we do. We've got the address and phone number of our meeting place on our website, and the full legal names of our leadership. All the weird shit we do, we lay it right out for people - we do animal sacrifice, we do possession, we don't stick to the lore, we don't stick to one culture/pantheon, we worship gods who have bad reputations, we've got a weird heirarchy and silly-sounding titles, we have freaks and perverts and queers in our group. Generally we keep to ourselves and don't get in people's faces or make a big deal of things, but if folks want to know, we don't hide things.

As far as Mysteries, we tend to hold that the Greater Mysteries guard themselves. For our trad, the two big ones are "It's all about food." and "This shit's for real." Those are the two realizations that folks tend to come back to after deep experiences in ritual.

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« Reply #14: August 25, 2007, 03:31:07 am »

What role does secrecy play in your religion?  Why?  What happens if people find out information they're not "ready" for?  What determines readiness?

Its not hidden that I am who I am or what I believe in but nor am I running around throwing what I do in peoples faces to make some form of a statement.
I suppose there is some secretive behaviour considering I live with family (they do know of my choice of religion) as my beliefs are mocked which is highly irritating as you'd imagine. So if I want to have some private time to do my own worship or whatnot I dont inform them that I dont want to be disturbed or where Im going other than 'Up the bush'.
In turn perhaps the suspicion of being mocked of my beliefs has created a bit of a brick wall at times to keep it all 'shhh'.

But in regards to those who have open minds n whatnot I have no secrecy. I wont volunteer information but if they ask about something I will explain.

As for the whole 'readiness' of info... if someone asks then they are ready to hear the answer. What they then do with this info may be good or bad or whatever but that is their choice and who am I to control anothers actions like that. We are all here to learn.
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