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Author Topic: How Do You Know It's Working?  (Read 6594 times)
MedusianProphecy
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« Topic Start: April 21, 2008, 06:11:07 pm »

My friend and I were discussing the effectiveness of magick. Personally, I've been wondering how someone can know if the magick actually worked, or if the desired result happened for other reasons, particularly if the result happens years down the road. I have heard some people say that the timing of a spell's actual effectiveness can vary widely, to the point that it might work immediately, or it might take weeks, months, and even years, instead. If you cast a spell designed to ease your chronic depression and felt some sudden relief 4 yrs later, couldn't that be unrelated to the spell? So how do you personally "know" when it is the magick working?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 06:15:51 pm by MedusianProphecy » Logged

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« Reply #1: April 22, 2008, 09:53:41 am »

So how do you personally "know" when it is the magick working?
You know it is the Magick working because there is absolutely no doubt in your mind that it won't work. If there is doubt and wonder if the Magick will work then don't even bother attempting the working because you are already throwing water on the flame. Find a more mundane method than magick at that point. Don't doubt Magick or your abilities to Will Change.

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« Reply #2: April 22, 2008, 10:52:38 am »

If you cast a spell designed to ease your chronic depression and felt some sudden relief 4 yrs later, couldn't that be unrelated to the spell? So how do you personally "know" when it is the magick working?

In that case, yes - but it'd depend a lot on the spell.

Some spells are designed to take a long time (or as long as they need to work.) Others are designed to be short term.

For example, I am in the middle of doing a bunch of job-finding related work, after finishing my professional/graduate degree last summer. (This is a totally normal time frame for the field, regrettably, and getting worse as the economy gets tighter).

Is it a 'failure' because I don't have a job yet? Nope. My magical work has been focused on

a) helping me figure out exactly what my job goals and needs are
b) on making me aware of the options out there.
c) helping me continue to build skills that will help me get the job I want
d) actually getting the right job - which means that the right one has to be available, even before I can start applying for it.

I'm doing really well on a, b, and c - and actually have a far better positive response record than a number of people I've talked to. But I'm quite aware that maybe the position that is absolutely the right place for me hasn't posted yet (or is in the pile I need to write letters for...)
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« Reply #3: April 22, 2008, 11:43:51 am »

In that case, yes - but it'd depend a lot on the spell.

Some spells are designed to take a long time (or as long as they need to work.) Others are designed to be short term.

For example, I am in the middle of doing a bunch of job-finding related work, after finishing my professional/graduate degree last summer. (This is a totally normal time frame for the field, regrettably, and getting worse as the economy gets tighter).

Is it a 'failure' because I don't have a job yet? Nope. My magical work has been focused on

a) helping me figure out exactly what my job goals and needs are
b) on making me aware of the options out there.
c) helping me continue to build skills that will help me get the job I want
d) actually getting the right job - which means that the right one has to be available, even before I can start applying for it.

I'm doing really well on a, b, and c - and actually have a far better positive response record than a number of people I've talked to. But I'm quite aware that maybe the position that is absolutely the right place for me hasn't posted yet (or is in the pile I need to write letters for...)

I will add to this that magical work, like other kinds of work, builds on itself over time. I have been doing a lot of prosperity and abundance work for the past couple of years, and I have evolved a lot b/c of that work. As a result, my goals and needs have evolved too. So instead of doing money attracting type of spellwork I am doing much bigger work now, around long term prosperity and really looking at what prosperity means. But the reason I am able to take those next steps is b/c the earlier work was successful and I learned so much from it.

And this is why I don't agree that doubt will kill your spellwork. Sometimes fear, pain, doubt, anxiety are part of what needs to be released from doing the work. I don't think that necessarily will make the magic not work. Doubting yourself has a chilling effect, for sure, but feeling your uncomfortable feelings during magical work does not.
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« Reply #4: April 22, 2008, 07:55:09 pm »

My friend and I were discussing the effectiveness of magick. Personally, I've been wondering how someone can know if the magick actually worked, or if the desired result happened for other reasons, particularly if the result happens years down the road. I have heard some people say that the timing of a spell's actual effectiveness can vary widely, to the point that it might work immediately, or it might take weeks, months, and even years, instead. If you cast a spell designed to ease your chronic depression and felt some sudden relief 4 yrs later, couldn't that be unrelated to the spell? So how do you personally "know" when it is the magick working?

I've read at least 100 definitions of magic in this lifetime.  To answer your question, it would help to understand your definition of magic.

Here's my most current definition:  Magic is the manipulation of natural energies not yet defined or accepted by science in accordance with one's Will to affect needed change.

By that definition, if it is my Will that something needs to change in my life, then the magic I perform will without a doubt manifest.  Conversely, if I merely want something to change in my life to suit my own mundane desires, the magic is likely to fail.

Now...
That answers your question using my definition of magic.  Unless we can agree on a definition, however, this may not be the answer you were looking for.
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MedusianProphecy
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« Reply #5: April 24, 2008, 03:46:02 pm »

Thanks for the reply FireWillow.

....By that definition, if it is my Will that something needs to change in my life, then the magic I perform will without a doubt manifest.  Conversely, if I merely want something to change in my life to suit my own mundane desires, the magic is likely to fail.....

At that point, though, I think the question becomes, "What is a true need?" I mean, there are certain things- for example- that we consider emotional needs, but in truth, without them, we could still live. Are they considered "needs" then or "wants"? I think magic can work in getting you something you want, but don't need, but for the most part my beliefs about magic seem similar to your own definition. I believe magic is the manipulation of energy directed by the will of the one casting the spell and that it is directed at a specific goal and intended to affect change.
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« Reply #6: April 24, 2008, 03:48:51 pm »

You know it is the Magick working because there is absolutely no doubt in your mind that it won't work. If there is doubt and wonder if the Magick will work then don't even bother attempting the working because you are already throwing water on the flame. Find a more mundane method than magick at that point. Don't doubt Magick or your abilities to Will Change.

Thank you for the reply Mannun. I think belief and faith in your spell's success does make it more effective, and it is prob. good advice for me to not think about whether it is being effective so much, because that causes questioning and doubt, which might detract from the energy. However, I also think that most people have some doubts. Have you never doubted your own work, even before you'd seen magic work?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 03:51:14 pm by MedusianProphecy » Logged
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« Reply #7: April 24, 2008, 03:55:02 pm »

In that case, yes - but it'd depend a lot on the spell.

Some spells are designed to take a long time (or as long as they need to work.) Others are designed to be short term.

Thanks for the reply Jenett. First of all, congrats on your working spell. I hope you end up getting exactly what you wanted in the end. Smiley As for the length of time it takes for a spell to work, although I know you can do 7 day spells, 3 day spells, etc. and you might expect them to work at the last working of the spell, but what happens when you cast spells with no time frame? I understand that by the very nature of your spell, it can only prepare you until the right job is available to you. With the spells cast by and for me, they were things that might happen slowly or quickly. Then again, they weren't spells that necessarily needed for me to wait until the right opportunity or situation came along, either. So, perhaps I should expect quick results?
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« Reply #8: April 24, 2008, 03:59:56 pm »

I will add to this that magical work, like other kinds of work, builds on itself over time....(section omitted)...But the reason I am able to take those next steps is b/c the earlier work was successful and I learned so much from it.

And this is why I don't agree that doubt will kill your spellwork. Sometimes fear, pain, doubt, anxiety are part of what needs to be released from doing the work. I don't think that necessarily will make the magic not work. Doubting yourself has a chilling effect, for sure, but feeling your uncomfortable feelings during magical work does not.

Thank you for the reply Rose. It is great that your spells are successful and helping you to learn things. You know, I think even a very ethical spell can have unintended consequences, though not necessarily bad. It's just that they cause things to happen as a side effect, that you might not have expected. That is why I try to put in fail safes to ward off bad side effects, at least. I suppose neutral side effects, and maybe even good ones, or bad ones that somehow slipped through, you might need to add to the spell. Also, we might find that what we asked for isn't giving us exactly what we needed, so we need to adjust things- or add to them- accordingly.

As for doubt- While I suppose faith might make it more effective, I think some doubt is natural. And you have a good point about needing to release such things as fear, anxiety, and doubt. I hadn't really thought about how that might be a positive thing in spell work- to feel it and work through it.
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« Reply #9: April 24, 2008, 04:01:47 pm »

Could it be that if you attempt a spell while still having doubts that it could still kinda work because you're confronting your doubts and dealing with them? So you might learn something even if you doubt a lot and the spell doesn't work much in a straight sense?
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« Reply #10: April 24, 2008, 04:35:07 pm »

As for the length of time it takes for a spell to work, although I know you can do 7 day spells, 3 day spells, etc. and you might expect them to work at the last working of the spell, but what happens when you cast spells with no time frame?

It depends entirely on the spell, and on the construction.

Also, there's a difference between "This is a spell that takes 7 days to cast" and "This is a spell that will make things *happen* in seven days." There's also magic that uses time as part of its structure (for example, charging a seed, growing it, and then harvesting the results) without having a fixed time frame.

There are very very *very* few things that I want that need to happen in 7 days or less. Many get into ethical issues pretty quickly. So, personally, I can't think of a time I've done a "In the next X days" spell.

(I do know some people who use them for job-related magic, but it means you've got to be pretty open to the type of job in question - looking for "A summer job that pays $8 an hour", with a focus in the spell of "Will get an offer within the next 2 weeks", sure. Doing it for an academic job where there is at least 2 months (and often 4+) between application and decision? Really not likely to get you very far. I can also see some uses for something like magic to bring you into contact with people who can broaden your social circle - something like "In the next 2 weeks, I will meet 5 people I'm interested in getting to know more about." But really, not that many uses compared to other methods.)

Now, I do know people (and do it myself) where you start the magic going with a 3, 5, 7, or some other useful number of formal workings - and then you often continue with much smaller maintenance work until it's resolved. For example, you might burn a candle down over 7 nights, focusing your intention on your goal, and then post an image or representation of your goal somewhere you'll see it every day, or include it as part of other devotional work. But in those cases, the frame in which the magic is set to work might be a week - or it might be months. Depends on your set-up.

The things I look at are:

1) Is there a time frame involved? (For example, in the job situation, I have a job already, so I want the *right* job, not the first thing that comes along. Putting an artificial time limit on the working may mean I get offers that would turn out to be a bad fit for my long-term needs/wants.)

2) What is the time frame? What specifically would I like to have by when? Again, with the job example: would I like to have at least 2 interview offers within the next moon cycle? A job offer by [reasonable distance away date]?

3) Is that time frame actually realistic? If I want to be married in 3 months, and I'm not even dating anyone yet, that's probably rushing it. Wanting a job next week when I haven't even started sending out resumes probably is, too.

4) Once all of that is in place, then you build your spell to accomodate/reinforce/include it. If you *don't* have a time frame in mind, then you don't include that part, and focus on other areas.

How do you tell if it's worked? Well, you have some sort of metric. If it's getting a job by a particular time frame, that's an obvious way to tell. If it's a less physical sort of goal - "I want to broaden my social circle" or "I want the right job" then you can tell if you're making progress toward it, and readjust as needed.
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« Reply #11: April 24, 2008, 04:52:44 pm »

Thanks for the reply Jenett. First of all, congrats on your working spell. I hope you end up getting exactly what you wanted in the end. Smiley As for the length of time it takes for a spell to work, although I know you can do 7 day spells, 3 day spells, etc. and you might expect them to work at the last working of the spell, but what happens when you cast spells with no time frame? I understand that by the very nature of your spell, it can only prepare you until the right job is available to you. With the spells cast by and for me, they were things that might happen slowly or quickly. Then again, they weren't spells that necessarily needed for me to wait until the right opportunity or situation came along, either. So, perhaps I should expect quick results?

I did a job spell - phrased somewhat like this:  a job that fits my needs, and where I fit the needs of my employer.  Within a reasonable amount of time considering my finances.  That would pay enough to fulfill my financial needs and a reasonable amount of my wants.  That I could stay at long term.

I did this spell when I was going to move 350 miles and did not have a job set up in advance.  I started it about 2 months before I moved.  I added energy to it on a regular basis (can't remember how often) until I had the job.  I had full time work , in my field, at a good rate of pay, with full (employer paid) benefits in 3 weeks after moving.  I didn't even deplete my savings account.  I call that success - and well within the parameters I outlined in the spell.  Oh - and I turned down another job (that would have been as good) because I had accepted this one already.

Of course, I have a university degree in my field and 15 years of experience.  I answered every ad that fit my needs and qualifications. I was 'on' for interviews.  But 3 weeks - for a professional career type job?  I think that's amazingly fast.
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« Reply #12: April 24, 2008, 04:58:57 pm »

You know it is the Magick working because there is absolutely no doubt in your mind that it won't work. If there is doubt and wonder if the Magick will work then don't even bother attempting the working because you are already throwing water on the flame. Find a more mundane method than magick at that point. Don't doubt Magick or your abilities to Will Change.




Obsessive doubt wastes energy that you could be using better, but a skeptical mind will assist in troubleshooting why one thing worked, but another was an utter failure. 

Wanting to believe that thought power out matches, or is hindered by mundane effort is a placebo for those who are still hoping they can get through life on luck and hope.
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« Reply #13: April 24, 2008, 08:10:58 pm »

Could it be that if you attempt a spell while still having doubts that it could still kinda work because you're confronting your doubts and dealing with them? So you might learn something even if you doubt a lot and the spell doesn't work much in a straight sense?

This has been my exp. in the prosperity and abundance work I have done, and the magic has worked exactly to the extent that I was willing to let it be so (or so mote it be, I guess Smiley). And this has given me a lot *more confidence, b/c I trust myself to continue to be a human being, make mistakes, learn, and grow, and the magical work clearly supports that, exactly as far as my faith in myself and the Ones I work with extends. So I am getting stronger and more competent both as a witch and on a mundane level. Go me! Grin
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #14: April 24, 2008, 10:21:43 pm »

....The things I look at are:

1) Is there a time frame involved? (For example, in the job situation, I have a job already, so I want the *right* job, not the first thing that comes along. Putting an artificial time limit on the working may mean I get offers that would turn out to be a bad fit for my long-term needs/wants.)

2) What is the time frame? What specifically would I like to have by when? Again, with the job example: would I like to have at least 2 interview offers within the next moon cycle? A job offer by [reasonable distance away date]?

3) Is that time frame actually realistic? If I want to be married in 3 months, and I'm not even dating anyone yet, that's probably rushing it. Wanting a job next week when I haven't even started sending out resumes probably is, too.

4) Once all of that is in place, then you build your spell to accomodate/reinforce/include it. If you *don't* have a time frame in mind, then you don't include that part, and focus on other areas.

How do you tell if it's worked? Well, you have some sort of metric. If it's getting a job by a particular time frame, that's an obvious way to tell. If it's a less physical sort of goal - "I want to broaden my social circle" or "I want the right job" then you can tell if you're making progress toward it, and readjust as needed.

Thanks for such a detailed response! You made some great points. My usual method is to not set a time limit, since I figure the universe will bring it to me as soon as it can and as soon as is fit. The people I know that cast spells, do so without time constraints, as well. We just ask and wait. The thing is, when something does seem to be working, I can never be sure if something else caused it, or if it was the magic. So, I'm left wondering. Maybe I will gain more faith that it is working when I see it time and time again. And yes, asking for a marriage in three months when you haven't even gotten someone to date is pushing it! *laughs* I don't go that far! :-D I try to take it a step at a time.
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