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Author Topic: Which Pagan religions are NOT nature-earth based?  (Read 19264 times)
rose
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« Reply #75: May 16, 2008, 09:58:19 am »

If you don't mind me asking: you said the earth is your mother and father, does that mean you view the Goddess and the God as the earth itself? Or do you worship the Gods separate to the earth? Or do you not in fact worship Gods at all?

Well, I take a more eclectic view than that. I do not see the gods and goddesses I serve as separate from the earth, no. I do worship Gods and Goddesses, and I see them as discrete in their functions, ie prosperity fertility, destruction/creation and so on, but not in their purposes, which to me is basically the reuniting of all, and then dispersing it again, endless contraction and expansion. The entities that I call Gaia and Green or Horned Man, I see as divine personifications of the earth itself, but I think of Kali and Shiva, for ex, as more of a Cosmic Mother and Father, part of Earth but not necessarily only of Earth-that's how They present to me, anyway. And the Earth is part of a greater cosmic pattern, and to me awareness and reverence for that is basically the same thing as worshipping the earth, but in the larger context. As Grym noted, we were made here, we are perfectly and divinely suited to live *here, no place else, as far as we know, without lots of special support. My primary focus, magically, is the Earth and care of it, and using the energy that is here for the good of all, to the best of my ability, b/c She is my mother and that is my role. But my focus, spiritually, is wider than that, b/c eventually reuniting with Her, in a cosmic sense, is my ultimate goal. Hope that makes sense.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/

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Juniper
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« Reply #76: May 16, 2008, 08:47:03 pm »

Well, I take a more eclectic view than that. I do not see the gods and goddesses I serve as separate from the earth, no. I do worship Gods and Goddesses, and I see them as discrete in their functions, ie prosperity fertility, destruction/creation and so on, but not in their purposes, which to me is basically the reuniting of all, and then dispersing it again, endless contraction and expansion. The entities that I call Gaia and Green or Horned Man, I see as divine personifications of the earth itself, but I think of Kali and Shiva, for ex, as more of a Cosmic Mother and Father, part of Earth but not necessarily only of Earth-that's how They present to me, anyway. And the Earth is part of a greater cosmic pattern, and to me awareness and reverence for that is basically the same thing as worshipping the earth, but in the larger context. As Grym noted, we were made here, we are perfectly and divinely suited to live *here, no place else, as far as we know, without lots of special support. My primary focus, magically, is the Earth and care of it, and using the energy that is here for the good of all, to the best of my ability, b/c She is my mother and that is my role. But my focus, spiritually, is wider than that, b/c eventually reuniting with Her, in a cosmic sense, is my ultimate goal. Hope that makes sense.

Yeah that makes sense to me- thanks for answering.

I like the concept of divine personification of the earth. Sometimes that is the way I'm drawn to viewing the God and Goddess whom I worship.
For me, the Gods are both inherent of this earth, and transcend of it- the latter of which seems similiar to your 'Cosmic Mother and Father'.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 08:51:08 pm by Juniper, Reason: thought of extra point » Logged

'How she longed for winter then!-
Scrupulously austere in its order
Of white and black
Ice and rock; each sentiment within border,
And heart's frosty discipline
Exact as a snowflake'
~Sylvia Plath
rose
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« Reply #77: May 17, 2008, 01:03:05 pm »

For me, the Gods are both inherent of this earth, and transcend of it- the latter of which seems similiar to your 'Cosmic Mother and Father'.

yeah, this is why I can't hang with JCI religions, they tend to concentrate solely on the cosmic and not on the microcosmic. What is in the dirt and what it does is exactly as important to me as Who made it, and why.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
Grymdycche
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« Reply #78: May 17, 2008, 02:28:20 pm »

yeah, this is why I can't hang with JCI religions, they tend to concentrate solely on the cosmic and not on the microcosmic. What is in the dirt and what it does is exactly as important to me as Who made it, and why.

Well put.  I read an article a while back, linked to from WitchVox, from some Christian commentator guy who, though somewhat knowledgeable (just enough to be dangerous) alluded to the "problem" with Wicca and Witchcraft" as being that practitioners make the mistake of worshiping the creation rather than the creator.

My answer would be -  There's a difference?   Tongue
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« Reply #79: May 17, 2008, 05:20:27 pm »

My answer would be -  There's a difference?   Tongue

I'm not a Christian, but my answer would still be "There's a difference." Of course, unlike Christians, I don't care who/what you worship. If you want to worship creation, that's fine and dandy with me.
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« Reply #80: May 17, 2008, 06:03:33 pm »

My answer would be -  There's a difference?   Tongue

Is there a difference between a baker and a loaf of bread?  Like Randall, I don't care who or what you worship, but I definitely see differences.

Sperran
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rose
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« Reply #81: May 17, 2008, 09:17:40 pm »

Is there a difference between a baker and a loaf of bread?  Like Randall, I don't care who or what you worship, but I definitely see differences.

Sperran

But ultimately, no, there is no difference b/w the baker and the bread, in my own view. Some find more meaning in the differences, some in the samenesses, I guess.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #82: May 17, 2008, 09:49:27 pm »

But ultimately, no, there is no difference b/w the baker and the bread, in my own view. Some find more meaning in the differences, some in the samenesses, I guess.

Remind me not to ask you for a sandwich.   Wink

Sperran
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rose
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« Reply #83: May 17, 2008, 10:01:50 pm »

Remind me not to ask you for a sandwich.   Wink

Sperran

lol....(rose munching delicious God sandwich...) mmmmm.....yummmy....you sure you don't want a bite?
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
Grymdycche
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« Reply #84: May 17, 2008, 10:03:20 pm »

I'm not a Christian, but my answer would still be "There's a difference." Of course, unlike Christians, I don't care who/what you worship. If you want to worship creation, that's fine and dandy with me.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.     Wink   lol


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« Reply #85: May 18, 2008, 12:44:22 pm »

Well put.  I read an article a while back, linked to from WitchVox, from some Christian commentator guy who, though somewhat knowledgeable (just enough to be dangerous) alluded to the "problem" with Wicca and Witchcraft" as being that practitioners make the mistake of worshiping the creation rather than the creator.

My answer would be -  There's a difference?   Tongue

I do think there is a difference, but not a big one; I believe the Gods are inherent in the earth. So if I were to worship the earth, I would feel that I were also worshiping the Gods. I don't worship the earth, however, or at least I don't direct my worship towards it- I direct my worship towards the Gods themselves. But I am thankful for everything that is on and in the earth, and I do think that showing as much respect towards the earth as I possibly can is in itself is a form of worshiping the Gods.

As far as the attitude that you are describing here- that the problem with Wicca is that practitioners make the mistake of worshiping creation rather than the creator- sounds similar to something a Jehovah's Witness said to me. But my big problem with their outlook on this is that they don't see the GOOD in nature/the earth. They just see the bad. They see Satan's influence everywhere, and can't wait for the day when Jehovah's is going to say 'enough' and make the earth the paradise it was intended to be in the first place. My reaction to this is always a shocked face and the internal thought: you mean it's not a paradise now? Because when I'm sat outside with the trees, the birds, listening to the sound of the stream and loving the cool breeze on my skin: that feels like paradise to me. Ok, so the world's not perfect by any means- the suffering that goes on all over the world is awful. But I don't therefore ignore the good, and I also don't blame Satan for any of the bad.

(Sorry that this somehow turned into a bit of a rant  Huh)
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'How she longed for winter then!-
Scrupulously austere in its order
Of white and black
Ice and rock; each sentiment within border,
And heart's frosty discipline
Exact as a snowflake'
~Sylvia Plath
rose
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« Reply #86: May 18, 2008, 01:18:24 pm »

you mean it's not a paradise now? Because when I'm sat outside with the trees, the birds, listening to the sound of the stream and loving the cool breeze on my skin: that feels like paradise to me. Ok, so the world's not perfect by any means- the suffering that goes on all over the world is awful. But I don't therefore ignore the good, and I also don't blame Satan for any of the bad.

yes! It's the awareness of paradise being right here and now that makes life really worth living Smiley
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
Grymdycche
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Last Login:December 09, 2009, 03:42:56 pm
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I never speak in absolutes ..except this one

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WWW

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« Reply #87: May 18, 2008, 02:20:57 pm »

I do think there is a difference, but not a big one; I believe the Gods are inherent in the earth. So if I were to worship the earth, I would feel that I were also worshiping the Gods. I don't worship the earth, however, or at least I don't direct my worship towards it- I direct my worship towards the Gods themselves. But I am thankful for everything that is on and in the earth, and I do think that showing as much respect towards the earth as I possibly can is in itself is a form of worshiping the Gods.

As far as the attitude that you are describing here- that the problem with Wicca is that practitioners make the mistake of worshiping creation rather than the creator- sounds similar to something a Jehovah's Witness said to me. But my big problem with their outlook on this is that they don't see the GOOD in nature/the earth. They just see the bad. They see Satan's influence everywhere, and can't wait for the day when Jehovah's is going to say 'enough' and make the earth the paradise it was intended to be in the first place. My reaction to this is always a shocked face and the internal thought: you mean it's not a paradise now? Because when I'm sat outside with the trees, the birds, listening to the sound of the stream and loving the cool breeze on my skin: that feels like paradise to me. Ok, so the world's not perfect by any means- the suffering that goes on all over the world is awful. But I don't therefore ignore the good, and I also don't blame Satan for any of the bad.

(Sorry that this somehow turned into a bit of a rant  Huh)


We could call them the "Half Empty Glass people".  Wink

I should probably elaborate more on my stance, BTW - which I can't do completely, because even I'm not 100% sure what it is - I'm constantly evolving (hopefully), but I think  - maybe -  the Divine itself became it's creation;  nature, the universe, etc.. you could say "morphed" but that conjures up corny images of "Transformers" or something. (There's a bumper sticker for you:  Optimus Prime is God  Grin)   Sperran's baker and bread analogy was cute, and I understand his perspective and point, but I think in this case, the baker became the bread, so to speak, and uh.. obviously the analogy breaks down here  lol

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rose
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« Reply #88: May 18, 2008, 05:12:22 pm »


We could call them the "Half Empty Glass people".  Wink

I should probably elaborate more on my stance, BTW - which I can't do completely, because even I'm not 100% sure what it is - I'm constantly evolving (hopefully), but I think  - maybe -  the Divine itself became it's creation;  nature, the universe, etc.. you could say "morphed" but that conjures up corny images of "Transformers" or something. (There's a bumper sticker for you:  Optimus Prime is God  Grin)   Sperran's baker and bread analogy was cute, and I understand his perspective and point, but I think in this case, the baker became the bread, so to speak, and uh.. obviously the analogy breaks down here  lol



In the Reclaiming Tradition, they use a wonderful myth about that; the Goddess sees her reflection in the curve of space, and falls in love with herself, and thus begets creation. It's very beautiful.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
Juniper
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« Reply #89: May 18, 2008, 05:53:18 pm »

In the Reclaiming Tradition, they use a wonderful myth about that; the Goddess sees her reflection in the curve of space, and falls in love with herself, and thus begets creation. It's very beautiful.

So, creation is in the image of the Goddess? Is that what that's getting at?
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'How she longed for winter then!-
Scrupulously austere in its order
Of white and black
Ice and rock; each sentiment within border,
And heart's frosty discipline
Exact as a snowflake'
~Sylvia Plath

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