The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
October 23, 2020, 05:05:57 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 23, 2020, 05:05:57 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Polytheism and Archetypal Deities  (Read 11952 times)
Lusiphelia
Master Member
****
Last Login:November 07, 2010, 05:26:41 pm
United States United States

Religion: Heathen, with strong occult & Mystery leanings
TCN ID: Lusiphelia
Posts: 536

Blog entries (7)



Ignore
« Topic Start: May 08, 2008, 10:04:07 pm »

I know many of you are hard polytheists and was wondering ** what you think about the various archetypal deities worshipped by Wiccans and others.
I'm talking about deities such as the Green Man & Woman, the Oak and Holly Kings, the Earth Mother, the Horned God, so forth and so on ad nauseum.

Do you believe they exist?  If so, in what context? Do they have specific names or only these titles?

** Of course, I'm not discluding (?) all the various degrees of polytheism represented here, I'm interested in all viewpoints and want to see what everyone thinks about this.
Logged

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Mari
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 10, 2010, 03:39:46 pm
United States United States

Posts: 1160

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #1: May 08, 2008, 10:06:59 pm »


My tradition is far and away from Wicca. And this topic is something I was discussing with my group not long ago actually. In all honesty, worshiping an archetype makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
Logged
Melamphoros
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:March 28, 2015, 11:01:26 pm
United States United States

Religion: Informed Eclectic with Hellenic Overtones
TCN ID: Melamphoros
Posts: 13621


Kiss My Scythe

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #2: May 08, 2008, 10:09:14 pm »

My tradition is far and away from Wicca. And this topic is something I was discussing with my group not long ago actually. In all honesty, worshiping an archetype makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

I second this
Logged



Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog
Lusiphelia
Master Member
****
Last Login:November 07, 2010, 05:26:41 pm
United States United States

Religion: Heathen, with strong occult & Mystery leanings
TCN ID: Lusiphelia
Posts: 536

Blog entries (7)



Ignore
« Reply #3: May 08, 2008, 10:19:41 pm »

My tradition is far and away from Wicca. And this topic is something I was discussing with my group not long ago actually. In all honesty, worshiping an archetype makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

I agree as far as that goes; it seems somehow akin to worshipping part one's psyche or somesuch.

However, would you say these deities exist BEYOND being mere archetypes?  That they actually in some way or form exist?  Or do you think they are just pretty and/or convenient images for those who, for whatever reason, 'require' such things?
Logged
Jenett
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:February 23, 2020, 06:56:44 pm
United States United States

Religion: Priestess in initiatory religious witchcraft tradition
Posts: 2506


Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #4: May 08, 2008, 10:33:52 pm »

I'm talking about deities such as the Green Man & Woman, the Oak and Holly Kings, the Earth Mother, the Horned God, so forth and so on ad nauseum. Do you believe they exist?  If so, in what context? Do they have specific names or only these titles?

I take it on a case by case basis, honestly.

I have a hard time with the idea of worshipping or directly working with an archetype in a religious setting (I have no issues at all with it in a meditative working, or in terms of personal growth, but I don't think archetypes are deities, or deities are archetypes: I think deities are independent entities with their own sentience, brains, and desires.)

I think there are a whole bunch of different deities out there. I think that some of them may be 'groupable' in various ways (for example, my experiences suggest to me that there are a bunch of 'Green Men' who are distinct individuals, but also share some common characteristics - sort of like people who grew up in a particular area or went to a particular school might.) Using a communal term for them might make sense in some cases, but they're still individual beings. Likewise, there are multiple iterations of 'Horned God'. They have some stuff in common, but they have differences, too - just like me and my siblings do, or my tradmates do, or any other category I might come up with.

(I'm also reminded of a comment from someone I know: the idea that if you get lost on the astral and yell "Mommy!", chances are good that some obliging mother goddess will eventually show up and shoo you home (and then, possibly, scold you about going out without adequate ways home/guidance/looking both ways before crossing planes/your sweater). As flippant as it sounds, I think there's something in that (and it matches with some of my own experiences): I think there are deity equivalents to the "If you get lost in the mall, ask a woman with small kids for help" thing that I and many people got told as children. Again, that's a grouping, not a single archetypal image of 'mother')

I also think that in some cases, we've lost names - that's likely true for the primary deities I work with on a personal level (best guess is a local British water-related Goddess and her consort: I have 'use-names' for both, but they don't match any research I've come up with so far: there's a lot of 'sorta right' but nothing that's clicked. That's ok.) In some of these cases, we do have known epithets for them, and the epithets work beautifully, honestly.

I think of it this way: if someone comes up to me and says "Ms. Librarian, please, can you help me?" I may take a moment to say "Oh, yeah, that's me they mean." But I'm not going to be possibly offended or put off, like I might if they called me by someone else's name entirely. (At work, I'd not be too offended - but I'm not likely to develop a close ongoing relationship outside of pure necessity with someone who persistently gets my name wrong.)

I'm currently going through something related with the shiny new coven: we've been exploring two specific deity relationships. We've only been doing this since February, and we're still in the epithet stage, because we want to make sure we've got the *right* names, before we start using them (and because of some other stuff, researching the direction we seem to be leading in to make sure we're dealing with some aspects appropriately before committing to that.) And yet, there's some stuff that makes the epithets *very* appropriate and very much a possible thing to call them that is polite, respectful, and fairly directly identifiably hitting the same entity consistently in this context.
Logged

Blog: Thoughts from a threshold: http://gleewood.org/threshold
Info for seekers: http://gleewood.org/seeking
Pagan books and resources: http://gleewood.org/books
LyricFox
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 04, 2011, 02:39:11 pm
United States United States

Religion: Lapsed Hellenic Reconstructionist
Posts: 8959


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #5: May 08, 2008, 10:37:43 pm »

My tradition is far and away from Wicca. And this topic is something I was discussing with my group not long ago actually. In all honesty, worshiping an archetype makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Ditto.

It's something I've never been able to get my mind around.
Logged

Visit The Breast Cancer Site & Click to fund free Mammograms
Hosts' Store: Doxy's Bazaar (w/Pagan Items)
Need Web Hosting? See The Cheap Web Hosting Report
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 08, 2020, 10:47:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #6: May 09, 2008, 08:30:13 am »

Do you believe they exist?  If so, in what context? Do they have specific names or only these titles?

Yes and no. I believe the (example) Horned God exists and even that there might be a number of different deities willing to answer when someone calls on the "Horned God."  Do I believe that all Gods are the Horned God because some people do? No, I believe that they are simply wrong in their belief that all Gods are really their Horned God. This is similar to what I believe about the JCI God, he certainly exists but those who believe that he is the only deity who actually exists are wrong with repect to that belief about that deity.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Lunamoth42
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:July 09, 2011, 10:56:08 am
United States United States

Religion: New Age-influenced Celtic Polytheist & Kitchen Witch
Posts: 84


First, there was nothing. Then it exploded.

Blog entries (0)

Lunamoth42
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7: May 09, 2008, 09:14:59 am »

I'm talking about deities such as the Green Man & Woman, the Oak and Holly Kings, the Earth Mother, the Horned God, so forth and so on ad nauseum.

Do you believe they exist?  If so, in what context? Do they have specific names or only these titles?

I believe that anything could potentially exist, and it's not for me to say that it doesn't.  If someone wants to worship the essence of Buffy the Vampire Slayer one day, the JCI God the next and the Horned God the day after that, that's entirely their prerogative.  If I accept that I very well could be wrong about the existence/non-existence of Heaven and Hell, I must also accept that I may be wrong about what $deity wants to be called, if anything.
Logged
rose
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:September 01, 2011, 10:16:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Shakti Wiccan with Reclaiming leanings
TCN ID: rose
Posts: 2923

Blog entries (0)

rose shannon
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8: May 09, 2008, 09:56:08 am »

If I accept that I very well could be wrong about the existence/non-existence of Heaven and Hell, I must also accept that I may be wrong about what $deity wants to be called, if anything.

But that is where faith comes in for me. What you are describing is to me an agnostic view of the divine. I understand what your saying, but I think at a certain point one has to make the determination that you *know the Divine exists, b/c you observe that it is working in your life, and decide that yes this is real and this is the way it works for *me.
Logged

Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
Mari
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 10, 2010, 03:39:46 pm
United States United States

Posts: 1160

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #9: May 09, 2008, 10:47:06 am »

However, would you say these deities exist BEYOND being mere archetypes?  That they actually in some way or form exist?

Yes. Which is why worshiping archetypes makes no sense.
Logged
Mari
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 10, 2010, 03:39:46 pm
United States United States

Posts: 1160

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #10: May 09, 2008, 10:47:54 am »

Ditto.

It's something I've never been able to get my mind around.

Shame you can't see the discussion on the Gwyddon board. I was so lost. ROFL
Logged
Mari
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 10, 2010, 03:39:46 pm
United States United States

Posts: 1160

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #11: May 09, 2008, 10:48:57 am »

Yes and no. I believe the (example) Horned God exists and even that there might be a number of different deities willing to answer when someone calls on the "Horned God."  Do I believe that all Gods are the Horned God because some people do? No, I believe that they are simply wrong in their belief that all Gods are really their Horned God. This is similar to what I believe about the JCI God, he certainly exists but those who believe that he is the only deity who actually exists are wrong with repect to that belief about that deity.

You said that so much more clearly than my simple "yes". LOL
Logged
Lunamoth42
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:July 09, 2011, 10:56:08 am
United States United States

Religion: New Age-influenced Celtic Polytheist & Kitchen Witch
Posts: 84


First, there was nothing. Then it exploded.

Blog entries (0)

Lunamoth42
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #12: May 09, 2008, 01:15:13 pm »

But that is where faith comes in for me. What you are describing is to me an agnostic view of the divine. I understand what your saying, but I think at a certain point one has to make the determination that you *know the Divine exists, b/c you observe that it is working in your life, and decide that yes this is real and this is the way it works for *me.

Actually, no, I don't "have to" make a determination.  That's like saying I "have to" see that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour.  I can easily spend the rest of my life being agnostic and still be very spiritual.
Logged
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:January 20, 2020, 08:24:45 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #13: May 09, 2008, 02:30:19 pm »

But that is where faith comes in for me. What you are describing is to me an agnostic view of the divine. I understand what your saying, but I think at a certain point one has to make the determination that you *know the Divine exists, b/c you observe that it is working in your life, and decide that yes this is real and this is the way it works for *me.

Why would one have to do that?  What benefits does it provide to do so?  Does the action of the divine get better if one decides that it's certain?

(Not that I'm likely to be able to do any of this anyway, I appear to be missing a lot of the 'belief' wiring....)
Logged

Louisvillian
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:May 11, 2008, 08:30:50 pm
United States United States

Religion: Solitary Wiccan
Posts: 46


Neolithic Revolutionary

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #14: May 09, 2008, 05:24:13 pm »

However, would you say these deities exist BEYOND being mere archetypes?  That they actually in some way or form exist?
I think so, yes. I think that the "archetypes" in our mind exist because there are real and tangible deities who those archetypal characteristics correspond to.
Logged

"Why be a Lamb of Christ, when you can be a Wolf of Mars?"
-My friend Eric, from my school.

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Polytheism and "Similar" Deities « 1 2 ... 6 7 »
Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology
Aster Breo 90 25576 Last post June 16, 2007, 12:00:15 pm
by Oaksworn
Wicca and Polytheism « 1 2 ... 7 8 »
Paganism For Beginners
attrice 115 33415 Last post July 31, 2008, 04:13:12 pm
by ladywhitewolf
Hard-Polytheism/Soft-Polytheism and attitudes to other religions « 1 2 3 4 »
Ta Hiera Hellenic Polytheism SIG
Therapon 57 22420 Last post October 13, 2007, 08:13:12 am
by RandallS
Hellenic Polytheism
Paganism For Beginners
ChildOfDiomedes 8 5557 Last post December 20, 2007, 10:15:54 pm
by fiamma
Dedication and Polytheism « 1 2 »
Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology
Áine 19 6941 Last post March 18, 2008, 07:45:19 pm
by Jorgath
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.075 seconds with 49 queries.