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Author Topic: Special Discussion: Nature and Pagan Religions  (Read 21725 times)
yewberry
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« Reply #45: June 11, 2009, 12:02:13 pm »

You literally have no hobbies?  You use no creativity in your religion or your job (ok using no creativity in your job IS possible)?  Nothing? 

Exactly.  In my estimation, witty repartee is a creative process.  Enjoying the art of others is difficult without a creative mind.  I just find it very hard to believe a person has no creative outlets at all.  Hell, even my sister, who swears she's "not creative" is an awesome decorator.  She can gauge a person's tastes and help them select and position furniture around it.  She's a whiz with color, too.  She looks at the eggshell walls at my house and just sighs.  Wink

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Perzephone
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« Reply #46: June 11, 2009, 09:11:42 pm »

You literally have no hobbies?  You use no creativity in your religion or your job (ok using no creativity in your job IS possible)?  Nothing? 

Yes, I am that boring. I read books other people have written, I watch movies other people have made, I play a video game someone else envisioned... and for a living, I fix computers other people have broken, lol. So, for me, finding that link to the seasonal agricultural festivals is difficult when it comes to spring. I don't even start many projects or plan any big events that I can consider as 'seeds I've planted'. As a result, I tend to ignore spring.
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mandrina
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« Reply #47: June 11, 2009, 09:15:11 pm »

Yes, I am that boring. I read books other people have written, I watch movies other people have made, I play a video game someone else envisioned... and for a living, I fix computers other people have broken, lol. So, for me, finding that link to the seasonal agricultural festivals is difficult when it comes to spring. I don't even start many projects or plan any big events that I can consider as 'seeds I've planted'. As a result, I tend to ignore spring.

Actually, reading the 4 paragraph post you wrote, I see alot of creativity. You just aren't recognizing it.  Step back a minute, look at what you wrote and rethink your definition of creativity.  Not having a direct link to nature makes connecting to a nature religion more difficult, but, as you said, you came up with a way to do so. 
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« Reply #48: June 11, 2009, 11:47:19 pm »

I fix computers other people have broken

That's actually a job that takes a fairly high degree of problem-solving ability, which is normally associated with creativity. I know that it's something I take into account when designing role descriptions for business processes I'm developing.
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« Reply #49: June 12, 2009, 12:21:47 am »

That's actually a job that takes a fairly high degree of problem-solving ability, which is normally associated with creativity. I know that it's something I take into account when designing role descriptions for business processes I'm developing.

I see it as more formulaic - I follow a checklist of troubleshooting methods, apply it to the problem, match a hardware or software fix - voila', the user can print again (or use their thumb drive, or view media on a CD, or whatever)!

I am creating a huge thread derailment with my lack of creativity, so I'll stop now. Cheesy I do appreciate the support & kindness, though.
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« Reply #50: June 12, 2009, 12:27:52 am »



Why are so many people trying to convince Perzephone the she really is creative when she has already stated that she does not perceive herself that way?  I don't consider myself overly creative either, and I don't consider that lack of creativity a great negative or some kind of put-down.  Appreciating the creativity of others is no more a sign of personal creativity than liking food shows an ability to cook.

It is starting to sound like all the ways people will point out that someone who identifies themselves as non-maternal 'really truly' is, if they would just look at it the right way.

Even worse, it is sounding like all the ways someone who is convinced that all pagan religions are earth centered will stretch and twist 'earth-centered' or alternatively, stretch and twist peoples' descriptions of their religions, so that they fit the desired image.

It's okay to not be creative.
It's okay to not be maternal.
It's okay to not be earth centered.
It's not okay to insist that a person does not know themselves well enough to make those distinctions for themselves.

IMO, of course. Cheesy

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« Reply #51: June 12, 2009, 08:03:15 am »

Why are so many people trying to convince Perzephone the she really is creative when she has already stated that she does not perceive herself that way?  I don't consider myself overly creative either, and I don't consider that lack of creativity a great negative or some kind of put-down.  Appreciating the creativity of others is no more a sign of personal creativity than liking food shows an ability to cook.

It is starting to sound like all the ways people will point out that someone who identifies themselves as non-maternal 'really truly' is, if they would just look at it the right way.

Even worse, it is sounding like all the ways someone who is convinced that all pagan religions are earth centered will stretch and twist 'earth-centered' or alternatively, stretch and twist peoples' descriptions of their religions, so that they fit the desired image.

It's okay to not be creative.
It's okay to not be maternal.
It's okay to not be earth centered.
It's not okay to insist that a person does not know themselves well enough to make those distinctions for themselves.

IMO, of course. Cheesy

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You're right, it's ok not to be earthcentered, it's ok not to be maternal, but every single person that I have ever met who insists that they are not creative, has been speaking from the point of view of 'what I do is not good enough to be considered creative in comparison to those creative genius people over there who have been published, are willing to crochet in public, etc." as well as women in general being taught to be self-deprecating.  That's why I pointed it out, that her definition of creative may have set the bar just a little too high for herself, and she might want to rethink it a little, especially since her own post indicates creativity.    I'm not saying she doesn't know herself, but maybe she's grading herself a little harshly in that.

under no circumstances will I say that the post indicated earthcenteredness or materalism.
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Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
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« Reply #52: June 12, 2009, 12:42:09 pm »


But what is wrong with setting the bar high?  I do not knit or crochet or tat and consider those who do to be creative.  If I were to use the fact that I can see the beauty of the article, feel the complexity of the stitches, and trace the patterns with my eyes or hands to claim creativity of my own, it feels to me like I am in some way undermining the praise owed to the actual creator of the items.  Yes, the audience is a vital part of the performance, and most performances wouldn't go forward without one, but I don't like to confuse appreciation with creation.

This isn't self-deprecation or any feeling of not being 'as good as' someone else. (I don't think I have that gene Cheesy)  I am an observer, a reader, a spectator, and an appreciator.  I admire many things whole-heartedly that I have no desire or talent to be or do myself.  It's nice to know that there are other people who do have that desire, because what they do enriches my life.  If I have to compare and equalize, I can decide that those others don't see what I do because they don't have my skill at being an audience or my practice at admiring people because they are so busy being admirable themselves.  It's nonsense, and I don't think that kind of equalization is necessary, but I could do it to prevent people from thinking that I am somehow putting myself down by admitting and admiring the greater skills of others.

I don't mind high bars.  In many ways i like them.  I have a very good mechanical skill with grammar, spelling, and vocabulary, but I am a mediocre writer.  The fact that I can recognize this, and thus (theoretically, anyway) recognize actual talent when I see it, pleases me.  It doesn't stop me from writing the occasional parody or even original work, but I know that stringing together an Elizabethan sounding curse does not make me the equal of Shakespeare.  That knowledge is freeing, and lets me enjoy my 'good enough' as much as I enjoy other peoples' 'good'. 

It's the difference between singing along to a cd in the shower and singing original works on stage to an audience completely caught up the the spell the singer makes.  The difference between admiring how smoothly a story arc advances the plot, and writing that arc (or that story) myself.  Creative people create, and creation is a Big Thing.  It should be recognized as such, and not be stretched and equalized out to give everyone a piece of it just because it seems mean to withhold it as an accolade.

I view creation as a big thing, but I'm not saying the results have to be big or splashy.  I agree with others here that planting and growing is creative, that knitting a comfy pair of socks is creative, that basically any act that creates something is creative.  i just don't think it needs to be abstracted out in the 'every child's a winner' self-esteem building sense.  It's okay not to have a piece of every virtue going.  It's not self-deprecating to say I can't do a cartwheel or walk a high-wire, and I don't need to have it pointed out that I can walk down a sidewalk which is just as good.  It's not as good (although yes, much more useful Cheesy ) and I don't need to have simple balance pointed out as 'a kind of' acrobatic talent in order to feel good, or any other way, about myself.

I think I'm exploding here a bit because I get tired of people not being willing to admit to lacking any quality perceived as good or admirable.  Having or being it all strikes me as unnecessary and exhausting.  I also feel it limits our ability to recognize and appreciate the virtues of others because we seem to be taught that if we recognize or appreciate something we must also possess it, as if it's wrong to admire something and NOT have or be it ourselves.  I can be all kinds of good things (and many bad) without needing to adopt those descriptors which don't really apply, and I don't lose anything by saying I'm not 'X' admirable thing.

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Blessed are the cracked, for it is they who let in the light.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

L Cohen
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« Reply #53: June 12, 2009, 01:08:16 pm »

But what is wrong with setting the bar high?

I think you're talking about something different than mandrina and I.  Someone doesn't need to be super-talented (or even really talented at all) to create.  We're not talking about talent.  We're talking about the drive to create, to have an outlet for that somewhere.  The "bar" mandrina mentioned isn't the bar that separates the shower-singer from the opera singer.  It's the one that makes people feel like nothing they do is good enough, so why bother.

Creation, in and of itself is a worthy endeavor.  What you create doesn't have to be seen or heard or touched by anyone but yourself, but it's still a form of expression, even if we're only talking to ourselves.

And to turn things around a bit, "I'm not good enough" can be seen as a cop-out.  I'm not suggesting this is true for anyone here, but I've seen it employed by people who were too overwhelmed by their initial (perceived) failures to try.  Personally, nothing I'm good at came easy.  I'm not much of a "natural" anything.  I've taught people to knit who got frustrated they weren't making something good the first time they picked up needles.  And I'm always amazed, despite hearing it over and over.  Every new creative task is a new language, a new means of expression.  Nobody's born knowing how to talk.  And nobody's born knowing how to knit.  You mention high bars.  But a pole vaulter learns on low bars and works his way up.  Lowering the bar a bit and giving yourself permission to screw up makes the next level attainable.  Without the low bar, the high bar never happens.

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Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
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« Reply #54: June 12, 2009, 01:49:25 pm »

I think you're talking about something different than mandrina and I. 

I think you're right.  I don't think I'm really talking about creativity at this point.  I do think that people who have 'the drive to create' should be regarded as creative, especially when they work at it and practice and actively 'want' to create.  I think what I'm reacting to is an implication that 'everyone' must have this drive to create, although since I can't say where that implication comes from I think it must be an inference I put there myself.

Regarding the 'cop-out' factor of saying one is not creative, though, I don't think it has to be an excuse for perceived failure or for not being willing to put in the work.  Well, the latter maybe.  It may simply be an easier and simpler way of expressing that one has no desire to be creative, which for some reason feels socially unacceptable a lot of the time.  There is a list somewhere of social virtues that creativity seems to be on, and it gets pushed in a 'don't put yourself down like that' way when people decline to apply it to themselves.

It's like when people refer to themselves as ordinary, average, or even content, other people jump in to point out all the ways, real or imagined, that this assessment is wrong, out of some idea that it is insulting or demeaning, and that a person must be feeling depressed or inadequate to accept or actively claim such a descriptor.  'Ordinariness' is not a social virtue, therefore people must be chivvied out of applying it to themselves.  Lack of creativity, or lack of the drive to create, is treated the same way.

Yeah, you're right.  I think I'm talking about social perceptions and norms, not about creativity.  Some word or phrase in one of the posts set me off on a tangent and I thought I was still on the main highway. Cheesy

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Blessed are the cracked, for it is they who let in the light.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
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That's how the light gets in

L Cohen
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« Reply #55: June 12, 2009, 05:58:19 pm »

You're right, it's ok not to be earthcentered, it's ok not to be maternal, but every single person that I have ever met who insists that they are not creative, has been speaking from the point of view of 'what I do is not good enough to be considered creative in comparison to those creative genius people over there who have been published, are willing to crochet in public, etc." as well as women in general being taught to be self-deprecating... 

Oh no, I don't have any trouble w/that 'self-deprecating' nonsense. When I do something, I step right up & take credit, hah. But I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm more of a consumer. I love art, don't get me wrong - I can appreciate the Hel out of it, whether it's food, music, literature, performance, you name it & I will feast on it, but I just can't seem to do it myself. I just don't have the inner drive to make things or make things happen. I've tried several different avenues, hoping something would light a 'spark', so to speak, but nothing really has so far. Part of what attracted me to The Cauldron was because of the dedication to Brigid - I've been trying to open a dialogue with Brigid to kind of stoke the fires of creativity within myself. But even if nothing flares up, I can still admire people who do have that inner fire.
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« Reply #56: June 12, 2009, 06:42:03 pm »



On reading back, you're right it does have that ring to it, but I don't think that they are the same thing. That said, no offence or valuing of anyone was intended and if any offence was taken, then I am sorry people felt a need to so respond. Likewise, to the extent that people have their understanding of what the words that they use mean to other people challenged and find it uncomfortable, I am sorry that they find that uncomfortable.

I freely admit that I do not believe that it is possible for a human being to not be creative at some level. It's wrapped up in both my understanding of what is is to be human and of creativity. Having studied a range of relevant units at a tertiary level, I can say that my parsing of the terms is not particularly out of the mainstream in any way that I am aware of.

Not all self-knowledge is sacrosanct or inherrantly correct IMHO. People are not only frequently mistaken about their internal experience or motivations. They also frequently apply terms with a particular (or even general) meaning incorrectly. The fact that they are describing a personal quality does not exempt them from using the terms the same way the general community does (or at least from dealing with those that do). I suggest that the situation here is more akin to someone with blue eyes saying that they have green eyes (possibly because 'green' is what they call 'blue' at home). It seems to me a lot more polite to say 'we have this fabric here, we call that colour blue' and have the person realise for themself that it's the same colour as their eyes, rather than turning to them and saying 'your eyes are blue, stupid'.

For me at least, I was looking for a less heavy-handed way of saying 'you can't be human and lack all creativity' without it just being a pronouncement from on high (i.e. likely to be ignored and forgotten). I think you learn more when you let people come to the answer themselves (especially when you are wrong yourself and their journey illuminates the fact).
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