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Author Topic: Question About Fake-ness Of Bible  (Read 8094 times)
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« Topic Start: May 20, 2008, 09:55:51 pm »

Soooo this might be confusing to try to explain but as I posted in the introduction forum, I am dating a Pagan and I love him telling me all sorts of stories and things about his religion. Well he tells me all kinds of things about how the bible is contradictory and misprinted. Ex: how the bible doesnt speak of Lilith as Adams first wife and how in one part it says, greet each other as a brother and sister with a hug and a kiss but in another it says how the Jews must marry the Jews and the Gentiles with the Gentiles. Also how the serpent was originally a sign of Wisdom and was twisted around by KJV to mean evil and the whole Noah's ark thing and the whole unicorn thing...

So I was wondering if anyone had any comments on this, or had any more interesting information on how the bible is messed up..?

Thanks!
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« Reply #1: May 20, 2008, 10:28:01 pm »

Soooo this might be confusing to try to explain but as I posted in the introduction forum, I am dating a Pagan and I love him telling me all sorts of stories and things about his religion. Well he tells me all kinds of things about how the bible is contradictory and misprinted. Ex: how the bible doesnt speak of Lilith as Adams first wife and how in one part it says, greet each other as a brother and sister with a hug and a kiss but in another it says how the Jews must marry the Jews and the Gentiles with the Gentiles. Also how the serpent was originally a sign of Wisdom and was twisted around by KJV to mean evil and the whole Noah's ark thing and the whole unicorn thing...

So I was wondering if anyone had any comments on this, or had any more interesting information on how the bible is messed up..?

What you ask isn't very clear so I'll reply the best that I can.

Lilith:  She doesn't appear in the Bible at all and her being Adam's first wife isn't canon.  It should be noted that she has her roots in Mesopotamia as a wind and storm demon.  In ancient Hebrew lore, she became kind of a bogeyman.

The serpent:  Originally, the serpent in the Garden of Eden was just a snake.  Equating him with Satan appeared much later.  Serpents represented many things in different culture.  In Judaism, Christianity and (probably, not sure) Islam, snakes are deceivers.  The Egyptians viewed cobras as the protector of the pharaoh and the Greeks associated them with medicine (as the sacred animal of Aesculapius) but many of the monsters in Greek Mythology were part snake (Medusa, Typhon, the Giants, Dragons, etc.).  The only association with wisdom I can think of is that it was associated with Athena.

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Noah's ark thing and the whole unicorn thing...

This is the part I'm not sure of.  Do you mean that unicorns once existed but were wiped out in Noah's flood (along with the dinosaurs Roll Eyes ) or did you meant for them to be separate?  I can list many reasons why the flood as mentioned in Genesis isn't scientifically possible, but unicorns (as far as I know) are never mentioned at all in the Bible.
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« Reply #2: May 20, 2008, 10:32:12 pm »

So I was wondering if anyone had any comments on this, or had any more interesting information on how the bible is messed up..?

While the Bible is contradictory in places, like any collection of documents written by different people over a long period of time, there really aren't many known misprints or mistranslations. While the King James bible is often derided as poorly translated, this simply is not correct. It was a very accurate translation of the oldest texts then available into the English of c. 1600 CE.  The problem is that the meaning and the connotation of many English words have changed in non-obvious ways over the last 400 years. So a person from the era of James I would sometimes get a completely different meaning (but a more accurate one) than a person reading it today would get. (Remember reading Shakespeare in high school English class and how many footnotes would needed to explain what words meant back when Shakespeare was writing?)

The Bible is also myth and not meant to be taken literally in many passages -- no matter what the Fundamentalist Christians say.
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« Reply #3: May 20, 2008, 10:32:46 pm »

but unicorns (as far as I know) are never mentioned at all in the Bible.

Yes they are.

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« Reply #4: May 20, 2008, 10:36:26 pm »

Yes they are.

Depends on the translation, actually.
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« Reply #5: May 20, 2008, 10:36:41 pm »

Well he tells me all kinds of things about how the bible is contradictory and misprinted.

Contradictory I can accept, but misprinted?  Perhaps some older versions of Bibles were occasionally miscopied or misprinted, but modern productions are pretty reliable.  Do you mean misinterpreted or mistranslated, rather than misprinted?

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how the bible doesnt speak of Lilith as Adams first wife

The Bible doesn't speak of Lilith as Adam's first wife because the story of Lilith arose from later sources such as the Talmud and the Zohar.  The story of Lilith probably devleoped as 1)a way to resolve the 2 creation stories in the Bible and 2) a Jewish version of the Babylonian demons Lilitu and Lamashtu.  The Bible doesn't contradict itself with regards to Lilith, and in fact, if you follow the logic of the rabbinic sources, Lilith is mentioned but not named as being the female created in Gen 1:27.

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and how in one part it says, greet each other as a brother and sister with a hug and a kiss but in another it says how the Jews must marry the Jews and the Gentiles with the Gentiles.

I'm not really sure what the contradiction is supposed to be here.  Perhaps if you supplied the verse numbers?

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Also how the serpent was originally a sign of Wisdom and was twisted around by KJV to mean evil


I suppose that one could argue that the serpent was shrewd because he enticed Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge.  However, the serpent is pretty clearly deemed to be evil and not because the story was twisted by KJV.  If you go back to original text, the serpent is cursed by God for his deception. 

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and the whole Noah's ark thing


What about the whole Noah's ark thing?  Do I think the story literally occurred?  No.  That doesn't mean it isn't useful, though.  I don't think that King Lear actually occurred either, but it is still a useful commentary on humanity.  If you mean something else, please specify.

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and the whole unicorn thing...

What whole unicorn thing?  Again, if you provide verse citations and more specific questions, I could answer you more appropriately.

Quote
So I was wondering if anyone had any comments on this, or had any more interesting information on how the bible is messed up..?

I have already offered most of my comments.  I guess I would add that I don't think the Bible is "messed up".  Do I think that it is the inerrant word of God dictated to holy scribes?  No, but that doesn't make it "messed up".  Perhaps if you further delineated what you mean by "messed up", I could offer more commentary.

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« Reply #6: May 20, 2008, 10:40:15 pm »

Depends on the translation, actually.

Yeah, it is in my KJV, but not my JPS.

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« Reply #7: May 20, 2008, 10:42:14 pm »


One other thing I would mention...the title you chose for this thread implies that the Bible was written to intentionally deceive.  Is that really what you mean?

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« Reply #8: May 20, 2008, 10:44:36 pm »

Depends on the translation, actually.

And wasn't there conflation with the rhino?

Or that may be something else entirely, though I could see it happening if only because of geography.
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« Reply #9: May 20, 2008, 11:55:04 pm »

And wasn't there conflation with the rhino?

Or that may be something else entirely, though I could see it happening if only because of geography.

The JPS translates the same verses as "wild ox".  That isn't to say that another translation doesn't talk about rhinos. 

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« Reply #10: May 20, 2008, 11:59:22 pm »

And wasn't there conflation with the rhino?

Or that may be something else entirely, though I could see it happening if only because of geography.

And according to the parallel translations site, Douay-Rheims translates it as rhino and the Darby translates it as buffalo.  It looks like wild ox is the consensus of most versions listed there, though.

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« Reply #11: May 21, 2008, 12:10:29 am »

This is the part I'm not sure of.  Do you mean that unicorns once existed but were wiped out in Noah's flood (along with the dinosaurs Roll Eyes ) or did you meant for them to be separate?  I can list many reasons why the flood as mentioned in Genesis isn't scientifically possible, but unicorns (as far as I know) are never mentioned at all in the Bible.

There's a folksong explaining "There are no unicorns" with "They couldn't be arsed getting on the Ark".  That's all I got.
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« Reply #12: May 21, 2008, 02:04:28 am »

Soooo this might be confusing to try to explain but as I posted in the introduction forum, I am dating a Pagan and I love him telling me all sorts of stories and things about his religion. Well he tells me all kinds of things about how the bible is contradictory and misprinted.

So the stories about his religion are actually stories about another religion? Smiley  Incidentally, the Bible is a collection of stories from an oral tradition, a large number - perhaps most, Im no expert - are not meant to be taken literally.  Of course there will be contradictions.  Your boyfriend's religion no doubt also has contradictory or bizaare ideas.

Quote
Ex: how the bible doesnt speak of Lilith as Adams first wife

Thats because Lilith was never in the bible as I understand it.  The story I heard was that the story of Adam's other wives came about to explain why God knew to put Adam to sleep while making Eve.  It's not part of the religious work, it's a 'side story' if you will, and an unofficial one at that.  If I recall correctly. Smiley

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and how in one part it says, greet each other as a brother and sister with a hug and a kiss but in another it says how the Jews must marry the Jews and the Gentiles with the Gentiles.

I don't see how those necessarily conflict.  I've hugged a lot of people I don't plan on marrying.

Quote
Also how the serpent was originally a sign of Wisdom and was twisted around by KJV to mean evil

Ok, symbols do NOT have universal meanings.  They have culture specific meanings.  The various ancient peoples of the world did not send around a memo saying that snakes couldn't be portrayed as evil.  If I were feeling snarky, I'd tell your boyfriend that snakes were originally a symbol of evil, but his religion went and got confused. <grins>  But I'm evil like that.

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and the whole Noah's ark thing and the whole unicorn thing...

Other people have touched on this.  Besides, if I were him, I wouldn't be mentioning unicorns.  Have you seen some of the Pagan websites out there?

Quote
So I was wondering if anyone had any comments on this, or had any more interesting information on how the bible is messed up..?

Thanks!

I covered it above: It's a collection of stories, not all literal, and some embellished.  This is pretty common.  Therefore there will be inconsistencies.  It's not like the ancient Jews and Christians had the power to warp time and space so they could all compare facts, etc.  The Bible is intended as a book of spiritual truths.  Think of the story of Eden, for example, as an illustration of what happens if you listen to someone telling you to disobey God.  (or why it's a good idea to fence around stuff you don't want people to go near...)

Perhaps you could tell us your boyfriend's religion?  We could always dissect that as well?
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« Reply #13: May 21, 2008, 03:40:55 am »

And according to the parallel translations site, Douay-Rheims translates it as rhino and the Darby translates it as buffalo.  It looks like wild ox is the consensus of most versions listed there, though.

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Perhaps they were referring to the aurochs?
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« Reply #14: May 21, 2008, 08:34:53 am »

There's a folksong explaining "There are no unicorns" with "They couldn't be arsed getting on the Ark".  That's all I got.

I came across a story somewhere where Noah deliberately didn't let the unicorn on the Ark because there was only one and he hated them anyway.

But it was a weird little story.  Not what I'd call a good source. Cheesy
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