Cunningham-What's the problem?

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

Or donate directly via Paypal

This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.

[dragonfly_high]

It would be more honest to phrase it as 'question everything except what we accept as a group'.

Then again, ex-members make great scapegoats.

Absent

    You hit it right on the head!  And even after many years, everyone they've kicked out or has left are STILL being used as scapegoats!  Sad, pathetic, but truthfully, the best thing they could have done for me was kick me out. I've learned alot more now then I was learning with them.

[Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)]

    You hit it right on the head!  And even after many years, everyone they've kicked out or has left are STILL being used as scapegoats!  Sad, pathetic, but truthfully, the best thing they could have done for me was kick me out. I've learned alot more now then I was learning with them.

That's actually a pretty good signpost when forming opinions about groups one encounters.  I don't actually belong to any groups, but I work with a few and am a sort of 'diplomatic liaison' from time to time.  I find that how groups talk about ex-members can give me good handle on what they are like to deal with and what approaches will tend to achieve the results I'm looking for.  Ones that tend to demonize ex-members take different handling than ones that respectfully recognize that different potential, current, and ex-, members simply have different needs or contributions.

I'm not even talking about occult groups specifically here.  Service organizations, social clubs, watch committees, recognizing the 'character' of a group can make it easier to deal with as an entity than expecting the same approach to work with all of them.  Two service groups may do essentially the same job in the community, but merging them would destroy all the good they accomplish separately.  Lots of groups, lots of choices, more possible good matches between groups and members, more chance to actually do some good.

Absent

[rose]

I was also involved with a group that claimed they told the new ones to question everything, but if you did they got pissed. Got me kicked out of the group.

hey me too! But then they changed their minds, and asked me to come back. And then, for lots of other reasons, I left on my own, anyway. It was fun, and I learned a ton from those guys, I don't regret the association one bit, but I think there are a lot of tiny, insular groups in the pagan world that really have a hard time with being open to questioning, perhaps b/c they are so fragile.

[dragonfly_high]

hey me too! But then they changed their minds, and asked me to come back. And then, for lots of other reasons, I left on my own, anyway. It was fun, and I learned a ton from those guys, I don't regret the association one bit, but I think there are a lot of tiny, insular groups in the pagan world that really have a hard time with being open to questioning, perhaps b/c they are so fragile.

It is a fragile group.  Mainly the problem is it's based on the 'leaders' egos.  Several members started going to me instead of them, so between that and me questioning some things they were saying, teaching and doing.  It wasn't pretty.

But I did learn from them.  Some things they taught me turned out to actually, surprisingly be true.  Not much, but some.  And most importantly, they taught me to trust my 'gut' feelings about people cause they are usually correct and gave me enough self-confidence not to 'need' to belong to a group if I don't agree with them.

I finally managed to work out most of my 'hate' for them, it's down to intense dislike and pity for them.  They are never going to grow beyond what they are now.  Hard to explain unless you knew them.  But I'm moving on. 

[rose]

I finally managed to work out most of my 'hate' for them, it's down to intense dislike and pity for them.  They are never going to grow beyond what they are now.  Hard to explain unless you knew them.  But I'm moving on.

yeah, there is a certain amount of damage that you just have to live with after an experience like that, but it's all compost for your soul, I suppose. I was also very angry for a while, but that did pass, and the positive aspects of the overall experience are what I keep with me.

[dragonfaerie]

I have been sensing a lot of dislike towards Cunningham.  I've never read any of his stuff (Just bought a book by him-"Wicca-a Guide to the Solitary Practitioner"-haven't started reading it yet) so...

I'm just wondering why there is so much dislike towards him?

There's dislike?

I enjoyed "Wicca: A Guide". I still recommend it to people who ask me for basic seeker information because I think it does a good job of laying out the basics without being specific to a particular tradition. It's also a good snapshot of where public info was about Wicca prior to the start of the publishing boom.

Yeah, it's a bit dated. And yeah, it's barebones. But I never got the feeling like he expected someone to take his "Standing Stones Book of Shadows" and use it as the end-all, be-all of spirituality. It's a starting point.

And while I don't have my copy at arms-reach, I don't think he ever explicitly says "Wicca is whatever you want it to be" in the book.

Karen

[QuercusRobur]

I was also involved with a group that claimed they told the new ones to question everything, but if you did they got pissed. Got me kicked out of the group.

There's forums like that: I'm currently on one that used to be good, but find myself the only one questioning things that other people have written - I'm only still on it because it has some good information.

I like people asking me questions because it makes me think.  And re-evaluating the beliefs you do hold is good for you because a) you may be wrong and b) if you're not wrong then you're more confident in those beliefs.

[QuercusRobur]

B****r, this is the bit I meant to quote - if anyone wants to delete my previous post, please do so.

We should, but I know several pagans that will believe ANYTHING told them.  They are the nicest people you could meet, but if they read it in a book or told by a so-called 'Experienced Pagans' or ones calling themselves Elders.

There's forums like that: I'm currently on one that used to be good, but find myself the only one questioning things that other people have written - I'm only still on it because it has some good information.

I like people asking me questions because it makes me think.  And re-evaluating the beliefs you do hold is good for you because a) you may be wrong and b) if you're not wrong then you're more confident in those beliefs.

[wisdomsbane]

B****r, this is the bit I meant to quote - if anyone wants to delete my previous post, please do so.

There's forums like that: I'm currently on one that used to be good, but find myself the only one questioning things that other people have written - I'm only still on it because it has some good information.

I like people asking me questions because it makes me think.  And re-evaluating the beliefs you do hold is good for you because a) you may be wrong and b) if you're not wrong then you're more confident in those beliefs.

I agree with that.  But also with the idea of questioning your own self and beliefs every now and then.  Personally, I believe that those who hold to a belief that they refuse to question, or refuse any questioning of, it is simply fear.  They are afraid of the possibilities that come if they are wrong.

And the B****r, does that mean bugger?  And if so, why blank it out like that?  Here in the US, some of us use that as a substitute for words loke f***, or d***, or... well you get the point.  Just curious, as I know some words have very different connotations in the UK than they do here (case in point, Everfool pointed out that fannies are not rear ends in the UK).

[wisdomsbane]

I have been sensing a lot of dislike towards Cunningham.  I've never read any of his stuff (Just bought a book by him-"Wicca-a Guide to the Solitary Practitioner"-haven't started reading it yet) so...

I'm just wondering why there is so much dislike towards him?

I've never read anything by Cunningham, although I do believe I actually have a book written by him.  I think it may be one on the magical uses of gems and metals.  I've actually only ever heard him recommended or at least spoken well of.  I think, as with any other resource you have, you have to just check and double check.  If you are only reading things from one author or type of author, then you aren't relly getting a well- rounded, overall education.  Check out a few authors, and compare them with each other.  Also, if you are looking into a specific religion, checking into others' ideas on specific items, especially ones which don't really make sense to you, is a very good idea.

Here is a good place for exactly that.  You will get those who agree, and those who disagree, but it's usually with reasoning attached (basically they won't just say "I agree", and leave it at that, they will explain why they feel as they do).

[Waldfrau]

I'm not even talking about occult groups specifically here.

I think social drama can happen in every group that gets together regularly for a certain lengths of time. The martial arts school I'm in had loads of it over the years and it's just a school for lay people having a hobby, not for actors or any professional uses of the arts.

I think it depends a lot on the characters of the members and the group structure which kind of problems develop and how dramatically they play out.

[Waldfrau]

Margaret Murray was also state of the art at one point. So was Gerald Gardner. So was Adler's _Drawing Down the Moon_. Or Starhawk's _Spiral Dance_. The first of those, you almost never see as an early recommendation - and even the last three rarely turn up on the "First books you should read, period." or come with a fair bit of annotation (especially the last one, though reading the 20 year anniversary can be really informative.)

The last two were the first books I've read. Where are they inaccurate or criticized? I've read the 20 year anniversary edition by Starhawk and also the newest by Adler from 2006, so maybe most of the critizism refers to the older versions?

I just wonder what misconcepts I might have gotten from them. I find it hard to make up your mind as a newbie when you don't have read much material to compare it with and have never been in any Pagan groups to see the practices described yourself etc.

[Jenett]

The last two were the first books I've read. Where are they inaccurate or criticized? I've read the 20 year anniversary edition by Starhawk and also the newest by Adler from 2006, so maybe most of the critizism refers to the older versions?

Starhawk's history is, well, very dated. As are some of her political takes (these are more obvious in the revised version, but because of the way she did the revisions - i.e. with annotations following the original text, which I otherwise think is a pretty cool thing - it's not always immediately obvious.) A lot of people also have some issues with her general political bent, which is still very present in the 20th anniversary edition (most of the complaints I've seen center either on the politicisation of the issue, or in some cases in discomfort with certain aspects of the feminist push in there.)

As far as DDtM, the Asatru community raised significant issues with her chapter on that (though I understand the revision did address a number of these), plus a number of the groups she discusses at some length are either no longer prominent, or there have been substantial and major shifts in approach over 20 years. (Not unreasonable!) While some of this is revised in the newer version (which I've seen, but don't own), interviews I've seen with her indicate that a substantial amount of the original book remains.

I still think it's a good book, and very worth reading - but I think it's not the same book she'd write starting from scratch right now. It's just not the first book I'd suggest to someone starting out. Or even in the first five, because I think it's more use to be talking about other topics first.

http://www.twpt.com/drawingdownthemoonspotlight.htm has an interview with her that talks about some of this in more detail.

[Darkhawk]

The last two were the first books I've read. Where are they inaccurate or criticized? I've read the 20 year anniversary edition by Starhawk and also the newest by Adler from 2006, so maybe most of the critizism refers to the older versions?

I just wonder what misconcepts I might have gotten from them. I find it hard to make up your mind as a newbie when you don't have read much material to compare it with and have never been in any Pagan groups to see the practices described yourself etc.

One of the major misconceptions I've seen about The Spiral Dance is that Starhawk was talking about Wicca.

[Dragondaughter]

Isn't that what we should be doing anyway? When I started walking my path oh so many years ago I was taught to question everything. I always thought that was pretty standard since so many of us come to paganism through questioning whatever we believed before.

Whenever I ask someone about a book that I'm looking to read, in which they have read as well, I follow up with more questions. No matter if they think the book was really wonderful/awful, I alway ask them why they thought so. What may be utter crap to one person, because of their belief structure, may be the best on the market for me, who may have a different one.

IMO, most of it boils down to is, 'what rings true to YOU',  as you read the book, website, or hear from others. I've read books that someone has recommended, and what they liked about it seemed to fit what I was looking for, only to be experiencing lots of WTF? moments while reading them.

*Shrug* Just my two coppers on the subject. 

[Tags:]

Jump to: Please select a destination: ----------------------------- About The Cauldron ----------------------------- => Rules and Regulations => Cauldron Announcements ===> Volunteers Needed: Site Assistants and Projects => Introductions => Board Questions, Suggestions, and Feedback => Chat and CauldronMUX Support => Test Board ----------------------------- Religion and Philosophy ----------------------------- => Paganism For Beginners => Books and Other Resources => Pagan Religions => Pagan Spirituality => Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology => Worship and Ritual => Holidays and Festivals => History and Religion => Faith in Everyday Life => Philosophy and Metaphysics => Non-Pagan Religions and Interfaith Discussions => Miscellaneous Religious Discussions ----------------------------- Magic and the Occult ----------------------------- => Magic and the Occult for Beginners => Witchcraft, Hoodoo, and Folk Magic => The Western Magical Tradition => Chaos Magic => Lodges and Other Magic Organizations => Miscellaneous Magical Discussions ----------------------------- Special Interest Groups & Special Discussions ----------------------------- => Special Topic Discussions => Chavi Memorial Chronic Illness SIG => General SIGS ===> College Pagans SIG ===> Cooking SIG ===> Divination SIG ===> Home and Garden SIG ===> Pagan Parents SIG ===> Teen Pagans SIG => Religious SIGS ===> Asatru and Heathenry SIG ===> Cauldron Cill ===> FlameKeeping SIG ===> Hazel and Oak: A Celtic Polytheism SIG ===> Neo-Druidry SIG ===> Reformed Kemeticism SIG ===> Ta Hiera Hellenic Polytheism SIG => Book/Media Discussion Boards ===> Academic Book Discussions ===> Pagan Religion Book Discussions ===> Magick Book Discussions ===> Fiction Book Discussions ===> DVD/Video Discussions ----------------------------- Life, the Universe, and Everything Else ----------------------------- => Pagan Announcements => Prayer and Energy Requests => News and Politics ===> Religious News ===> Non-Religious News ===> Political Discussions => Social Discussion Boards ===> Art, Poetry and Writing ===> Books ===> Computers and the Internet ===> Crafts and Hobbies ===> Family Life ===> Gaming ===> Health and Medicine ===> Humor and Quizzes ===> Music, Television, and Film ===> Pets ===> Science and Technology ===> Sports and Recreation