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Author Topic: Paganism and Magic  (Read 19232 times)
Vyktor
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« Reply #30: June 12, 2008, 09:26:06 pm »

In the Gwyddoniad, we certainly make that differentiation. Two diferent things.

I noticed that from what I have read. In ways I think that is a really good thing.
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« Reply #31: June 12, 2008, 10:45:17 pm »

From my own experience, I've found that a practitioner of a Pagan religion is much more likely to practice magic than a Christian, Muslim, or Jewish person. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why.

I think that is in large part because many (if not most) JCI faiths have some sort of prohibition against magic.  I think that the emphasis on self power in magic runs counter to the JCI focus on dependence on God.

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« Reply #32: June 12, 2008, 11:15:35 pm »

I think that is in large part because many (if not most) JCI faiths have some sort of prohibition against magic.  I think that the emphasis on self power in magic runs counter to the JCI focus on dependence on God.

That's true. I hadn't really thought of it that way. Gosh, a part of the Our Father just came into my head (who knew I still remembered it after all these years?)- 'Thy Will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven'. So I suppose magic might be seen as one's own will being done, as opposed to God's.
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« Reply #33: June 13, 2008, 03:15:53 am »

Sile,

Not that it matters, but my degree is a BA in Philosophy.   You  can carry on and personalize this thing all you want to.  I don't care what degrees any of you hold, it really doesn't matter to me. This conversation began as simple question about magic use in pagan religions and I responded to it as a layman.  It's turned into a debate/challenge, verging on personal attack.

If you're comfortable with the way you've approached this, I'm happy for you.

TC is, and always has been, a debate board with a strong scholarly inclination. Debate is what we do here, and the call there has been here to take into consideration scientific ethics in the matter is rather typical for the forum. If you have problems with strong debate and and inclination toward a scholarly approach, this might not be the board for you.

As for personal attacks, that is an accusation staff takes very seriously. I realize you only state things are verging on personal attacks, but currently, I'm not seeing anything that comes even close. The attacks have purely been on your position, not your person. If at any point you feel there has been a personal attack (we do what we can as staff, but we might miss something), please pm with your concerns.

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Vale
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« Reply #34: June 13, 2008, 04:29:20 am »



From my own experience, I've found that a practitioner of a Pagan religion is much more likely to practice magic than a Christian, Muslim, or Jewish person. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why.

I wonder if it is as simple as it's impossible to spend anytime in the Pagan world without coming across magic and magical practice.  Such practices are also widely regarded as acceptable unlike the JCI world which takes a different view.
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« Reply #35: June 13, 2008, 06:56:53 am »

I think that is in large part because many (if not most) JCI faiths have some sort of prohibition against magic.  I think that the emphasis on self power in magic runs counter to the JCI focus on dependence on God.
Higginbotham, Paganism mentions those bible passages about witches and magic: (It's also a matter of translation!)
Exodus 22:18
Samuel 15:23
Acts 8:9
Deuteronomy 18:10
2 Kings 9:22
2 Chronicles 33:6
Micah 5:12
Galations 5:20
Nahum 3:4

Just throwing this in up to further research, haven't looked up them all yet, not in an English bible anyway. (Is there a scholarly bible internet site in English? I only possess various bibles in German.)
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RandallS
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« Reply #36: June 13, 2008, 08:32:19 am »

Just throwing this in up to further research, haven't looked up them all yet, not in an English bible anyway. (Is there a scholarly bible internet site in English? I only possess various bibles in German.)

This site provides online access to the New American Bible (which is an accurate, modern English translation Koi has recommended in the past). Note it is a Catholic version of the Bible.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm
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« Reply #37: June 13, 2008, 10:36:50 am »

In ways I think that is a really good thing.

On many levels. Wink
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« Reply #38: June 13, 2008, 01:09:22 pm »

This site provides online access to the New American Bible (which is an accurate, modern English translation Koi has recommended in the past). Note it is a Catholic version of the Bible.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm
Thanks.
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« Reply #39: June 13, 2008, 01:58:30 pm »

My degree is a BA in Philosophy.
Maybe you just went into that trap because philosophy works a bit different than anthropology. I have studied neither, I'm studying history and I've also been trained to distance myself from the perspective of the societies I'm researching and apply other terms to them than they do, especially as I'm coming from a country with a strong emphasis on the study of its own nazi past.

I'm trying to give an US example:

If I was to write an essay about the time before civil war I could write:

'Some southern Americans held colored people as slaves and justified it with racial prejudices like the belief that colored people were mentally inferior and mostly driven by lust.'

You noticed that I didn't use the terms of those slaveholders, but used my concepts to describe them, for example I used the terms 'colored people' and 'racial prejudices'. Some of the slaveholders would have used the terms 'niggers' and 'racial differences' instead, but for scientific and ethical reasons I have to distance myself from the views of the society I'm researching in that case. That's why I'm applying universalistic terms like 'racial prejudices' which can refer to different cases (like the difference between scientific racism and the sin-theory) although the people (the slaveholders) I'm describing with these terms don't use it themselves, in their worldview the believed inferiority of colored people wouldn't be a racial prejudice, but a truth.

You see in my subject distance is necessary and radical cultural relativism without regard to the specific case would cause a lot of problems as if I'd write 'Some southern Americans owned mentally inferior niggers' out of some inapropriate respect for the slave holding society and its terms. That doesn't make it unimportant how they justified slavery in their worldview, not every slave holding society is racist or has the same racist theories. I'd have to take their terms into account to understand this society, but for ethical reasons I'd have to distance myself from them.

That's wy in my subject I wasn't trained much in respecting the worldview of the societies I'm researching, but anthropology isn't history. So I'm a lay there and have to be careful before I apply scientific paradigma which can be used in a different subject like history.


Don't get me wrong, people, I'm not trying to justify what sile tried to do, I'm just trying to explain it. I don't know how they operate in philosophy though, but my guess would be that they use distance and universalistic terms a lot. It's maybe a matter of cultural, ethical and scientific context.
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« Reply #40: June 13, 2008, 02:09:34 pm »

'Some southern Americans held colored people as slaves and justified it with racial prejudices like the belief that colored people were mentally inferior and mostly driven by lust.'

Passionfruit, I know that this is something you would have no way of knowing, but in the U.S. the terms "colored" and "colored people" has fallen out of favor.  Many people see these terms as racist.  I know that you don't mean it that way at all, but wanted to let you know so that you don't get a negative reaction elsewhere for an unintended slight.  Typically in the U.S., the terms "Black" and "African-American" are used for persons of African heritage.  For some reason "persons of color" is typically not considered racist (although colored is).  However, that term is an umbrella term that describes (as far as I can tell) anyone not Caucasian (White). 

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Waldfrau
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« Reply #41: June 13, 2008, 03:05:46 pm »

Passionfruit, I know that this is something you would have no way of knowing, but in the U.S. the terms "colored" and "colored people" has fallen out of favor.  Many people see these terms as racist.  I know that you don't mean it that way at all, but wanted to let you know so that you don't get a negative reaction elsewhere for an unintended slight.  Typically in the U.S., the terms "Black" and "African-American" are used for persons of African heritage.  For some reason "persons of color" is typically not considered racist (although colored is).  However, that term is an umbrella term that describes (as far as I can tell) anyone not Caucasian (White). 

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Sorry, I didn't know. I was sure that was the term I learned in English classes at the end of the 90ies, but such terms can change a lot. I hope what I was trying to say still makes sense, just swap the terms. I could have used an example of the history of my country, but was afraid there would also be some understanding problems.
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Waldfrau
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« Reply #42: June 13, 2008, 03:28:27 pm »

Sorry, I didn't know. I was sure that was the term I learned in English classes at the end of the 90ies, but such terms can change a lot. I hope what I was trying to say still makes sense, just swap the terms. I could have used an example of the history of my country, but was afraid there would also be some understanding problems.
My dictionary from 1992 says 'coloured people'. Sorry for using the wrong term, I didn't intend to insult anyone. I'm sorry. I wish I could edit the post, but I know it's against the rules.
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« Reply #43: June 13, 2008, 03:38:19 pm »

Sorry, I didn't know. I was sure that was the term I learned in English classes at the end of the 90ies, but such terms can change a lot. I hope what I was trying to say still makes sense, just swap the terms. I could have used an example of the history of my country, but was afraid there would also be some understanding problems.

Don't worry about it; I could tell by the context what you meant.  I just didn't want you to use that terminology somewhere else and be surprised because someone was offended.  It was definitely out of fashion in the U.S. before the late '90s; I wonder if this is a difference of British and American English?  Perhaps some of UK members could comment on this?

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« Reply #44: June 13, 2008, 03:38:57 pm »

My dictionary from 1992 says 'coloured people'. Sorry for using the wrong term, I didn't intend to insult anyone. I'm sorry. I wish I could edit the post, but I know it's against the rules.

Hey Passionfruit, I think it's obvious that you didn't mean to cause any offense. And yeah, terms change all the time. In 1992 it probably was the correct term to use, but no so much nowadays.
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Scrupulously austere in its order
Of white and black
Ice and rock; each sentiment within border,
And heart's frosty discipline
Exact as a snowflake'
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