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Author Topic: Closed Traditions?  (Read 15512 times)
RandallS
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« Reply #15: July 15, 2008, 08:14:24 am »

In that case, the pagans there are driven by nationalism as they are religiously and they wish to return Greek society to the way it was before Christianity became the dominant religion.

In most cases like these, the people are nationalists or racists who are using religion to make their extreme nationalism/racism sound more legitimate. In other words, their nationalism/racism informs their religion instead of the other way around.
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« Reply #16: July 15, 2008, 08:44:30 am »

AIM is horrible eh?



If I'm reading their website correctly, "Defensive of their culture" is a really good term.  But then again, they are actually the victims of official attempt to destroy their culture and religion in various ways from appropriation to breaking up families to forcible conversion, and so on.  THere's a reason behind the bumper sticker "Trust the government, ask an Indian."  although alot of them would extend that to various percentages of local whites as well, depending on experience.
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« Reply #17: July 15, 2008, 08:46:15 am »

LOL, great advice Lyric, I need to remember that next time I run into someone telling how I should commune with the divine and how I shouldn't. You'd think if I'd contact some deities or spirits I'm not allowed to or if I use 'stolen' methods or improper ones the deities or spirits would be the first ones to complain or just ignore my attempts. Since when do they send some of their followers to harass 'thiefs' or heretics? At least I haven't heard of many deities doing that kind of thing. Some might do though partially.

As long as you don't sell whatever you're doing as the original thing and claim to be something you aren't I don't see how it could be a crime to just practice the path you're called to.

Well, I'm a Recon (or was one before I got so lazy), so everyone who has a passing acquaintance with those religions should know there's not a whole lot of mix and match that goes on in them. I'll get all hot and bothered about the things that directly effect me, but talking to some jackass who has his knickers in a twist over me not being Greek just isn't one of them.

Now, don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that you contact and worship the deities of an ancient culture in the closest-to-the-original methods that were originally used, and when you have to make a modern substitution you are VERY clear that it is just that, but really. Someone getting all worked up over whom I should and should not worship really needs to take it up with those at the other end. After all, my attraction to the Greeks didn't happen because I had the great idea I should worship them. I had a little help from that end.
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« Reply #18: July 15, 2008, 09:24:51 am »

It also exists in some of the Native American movements. I think they spend more time inspecting each others' cards than doing anything else.

May I inquire what Native American movements you are referring to?... as I am Native American (and raised by my father's side of the family accordingly) and have never heard of this.

Just curious.  Smiley


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« Reply #19: July 15, 2008, 09:27:40 am »

So I'm really not sure what to think of this. I was on a site I frequent called gaiaonline. It's mostly teens and young adults, with a thriving message board and a few games and such to play. One of the forums is called Morality and Religion, or M&R for short. There are a few Pagans on the site who are very well read and knowledgeable, but I'm starting to think that they are just making some things that they personally believe into fact and telling people who are trying to start out in Paganism that it is the whole truth. Other than this they are nice people and have a private forum for helping newbies along.

The main think they seem to be able to rant on about is something they call 'Culture Rape', claiming that most ancient Pagan traditions are closed and if you weren't raised in, say, Ireland, then you have absolutely no right to attempt to worship Celtic Deities. Some people try to defend themselves by saying that they are of Irish descent but they still cry culture rape. They get pretty mocking when people say that they have anything to do with Native American spirits or Deities if they aren't Native American themselves.

I've googled the terms closed tradition and culture rape many times and only ever found it from this small group of people... I'm just curious of ANYONE has come across this? I'm just really confused, and I'm not the type to get into a confrontation with them because, honestly, if I go up against them I'm going to get mocked since I haven't read all the keys of Solomon or something... And having been 'thwapped' by both Celtic and Native American Gods, it's pretty much a sure bet they would have a lot to say to me that isn't productive at all...



I do not think it matters what your ethnic heritage is in regards to what gods you work with etc...

Look at it this way, all ethnic groups on this planet belong to one larger group... humankind. We are all one big family, and we are all connected through this bond. So, we all have an equal opportunity in walking any path and working with any deity.


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Jennifer Adele K
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« Reply #20: July 15, 2008, 09:44:54 am »

Oh bullshit....

Okay, I agree with most everything Lyric and others have said on one level, BUT I'm going to take the contrary opinion (not just to be contrary, but because I kind of see the other side).

There are times when cultural appropriation (a less charged term than "cultural rape," perhaps) bothers me. Particularly when someone from the majority group cherry-picks stuff from a the culture of a minority group that has suffered greatly at the hands of the majority. It smacks of blithe ignorance, inauthenticity, and an arrogant sense of entitlement. I'm not just talking religious stuff, like somebody else's deities, but those definitely can qualify at times.

I think I feel that way mostly about living traditions.

But I also get a similar queasy feeling sometimes with ancient traditions long gone, and this is more on a personal level. For me, religions and deities are integral to the culture that spawned them; they often don't make sense to me outside of that context. (For example, Abrahamic faiths are a total disconnect to me; why would I, a guy in the 21st-century West, relate to the religions of desert tribes from the Mideast from 1500 to 5000 years ago, give or take? A bad example, since these are living traditions, but you get the idea.)

Some deities/religions obviously export better than others (the Abrahamic faiths, and some folks have already mentioned gods that have crossed pantheons). And obviously plenty of people out there (the many recons of various traditions) don't have the same hang-ups I do.

But for me, personally, becoming a Greek recon would feel completely unnatural, since I have no Greek blood (even though my culture is Western, which is heavily influenced by its roots in the Greek pantheon); and taking up worship of the Orishas feels just as unnatural, since my culture is very much that of the modern West, not west African (even though my ethnic roots are from west Africa). With ancient traditions, if it doesn't feel unnatural to somebody else, however, I'm not sure I see a problem.

[Apologies to longtime Cauldronites, who have seen me write about my personal cultural-religious disconnects many times before. BTW, what's AIM, anyway?]
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« Reply #21: July 15, 2008, 09:57:43 am »

May I inquire what Native American movements you are referring to?... as I am Native American (and raised by my father's side of the family accordingly) and have never heard of this.

Just curious.  Smiley


Jennifer Adele K

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« Reply #22: July 15, 2008, 09:59:16 am »

[Apologies to longtime Cauldronites, who have seen me write about my personal cultural-religious disconnects many times before. BTW, what's AIM, anyway?]

American Indian Movement

Laudable goals, I think, but the message gets totally lost in the delivery.
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« Reply #23: July 15, 2008, 10:11:02 am »

American Indian Movement

Laudable goals, I think, but the message gets totally lost in the delivery.

Thank you for explaining that. Sleep dep had make me curious how AOL instant messenger was involved.  Cheesy (And is it sad, in that was the first thing to come to mind?  Huh )
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« Reply #24: July 15, 2008, 10:41:00 am »

Thank you for explaining that. Sleep dep had make me curious how AOL instant messenger was involved.  Cheesy (And is it sad, in that was the first thing to come to mind?  Huh )

Heh...no problem.

I'd love to say that what I experienced was an isolated event with some bad apples, but that really seems to not be the case. I generally don't paint with a broad brush, but in this instance, there are just too many people who I know have had the same sort of encounters for me to dismiss it as a one off.
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« Reply #25: July 15, 2008, 11:18:46 am »

American Indian Movement

Laudable goals, I think, but the message gets totally lost in the delivery.


Huh... I have never heard of them.

guess it is time for me to "google" so I can chat more knowledgably in the future. Smiley


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« Reply #26: July 15, 2008, 11:24:26 am »


Huh... I have never heard of them.

guess it is time for me to "google" so I can chat more knowledgably in the future. Smiley


Jennifer Adele K

OK... I did do a little research real quick to get an overview... and it loooks like AIM is a civil rights group for indigenous peoples.

I can't say I have ever knowingly met anynoe affiliated with AIM.

It is a shame people have had negative encounters since some of their ideas sound very positive.


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« Reply #27: July 15, 2008, 11:39:21 am »

OK... I did do a little research real quick to get an overview... and it loooks like AIM is a civil rights group for indigenous peoples.

I can't say I have ever knowingly met anynoe affiliated with AIM.

It is a shame people have had negative encounters since some of their ideas sound very positive.


Jennifer Adele K

IIRC, they were named as a group conducting terrorist activities at one point in the 70s. That was a designation from the US government, and I suspect no longer in effect.

My experience wasn't anything like that, but the people I had dealings with were total assholes, and because of that I cut that group no slack. As far as I can tell any Pagan is fair game even if said Pagan's religion has nothing to do with NA beliefs. And, like I said, too many people have had the same sorts of encounters that I have, so it's not limited to one group of people running around causing trouble.
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« Reply #28: July 15, 2008, 12:53:24 pm »

IIRC, they were named as a group conducting terrorist activities at one point in the 70s. That was a designation from the US government, and I suspect no longer in effect.

My experience wasn't anything like that, but the people I had dealings with were total assholes, and because of that I cut that group no slack. As far as I can tell any Pagan is fair game even if said Pagan's religion has nothing to do with NA beliefs. And, like I said, too many people have had the same sorts of encounters that I have, so it's not limited to one group of people running around causing trouble.

Probably their best known member is Leonard Pelltier.  I have yet to make my mind up about the group as a whole; I just haven't gotten enough info from neutral sources.  I know they were complete butt-heads over at the Thicket, but I don't know if that is indicative of the whole group or just those hanging around forums.  I wouldn't want to judge Christianity by a lot of Christians I find on internet forums (e.g. Perilous Times).  I do understand why the whole thing leaves a bad taste in your mouth, though.

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« Reply #29: July 15, 2008, 12:57:28 pm »

Probably their best known member is Leonard Pelltier.  I have yet to make my mind up about the group as a whole; I just haven't gotten enough info from neutral sources.  I know they were complete butt-heads over at the Thicket, but I don't know if that is indicative of the whole group or just those hanging around forums.  I wouldn't want to judge Christianity by a lot of Christians I find on internet forums (e.g. Perilous Times).  I do understand why the whole thing leaves a bad taste in your mouth, though.

Sperran

Yeah, and if it was just what happened at TT, I'd probably dismiss it and move on. The fact that it's happened to other people, and some not on internet forums is what makes me look at the whole group with my eyebrows up in points.

It's like I'm sure you could poke around on Stormfront and turn up some non-racists, but why would you go to the trouble? Basically if AIM doesn't want to be known by the company it keeps, then it needs to do something about the company. It's been attached to them for too long for me to spend any time dismissing what I've run into and what I've heard.
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