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Author Topic: Chaos Magic and Christianity  (Read 23553 times)
Zanshin
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« Reply #60: April 14, 2007, 07:34:58 am »

Just to clarify my position a little further on this one, I think Crowley is bang on in this respect: 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.' If what you are doing is truly in accord with your True Will, then it will conform to all the magickal imperatives of the moment, and will be totally right as a magickal act at that moment.

And 'Every man and every woman is a Star'. We each have our own path through the cosmos, and if we are truly following that path, then our actions won't interfere with others who are also on their true paths. If others are not in their true orbits, then they might find our actions incomprehensible or objectionable, but that will say more about them than us.

It's highly unlikely that my own True Will would require me to take Christian communion, but it's not entirely impossible.

For those who aren't familar with Crowley's stuff, both the above quotes are from the Book of the Law:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 07:37:31 am by Zanshin » Logged

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Mandi
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« Reply #61: April 14, 2007, 08:52:16 am »

Well, generally a Chaote wouldn't be speaking in tongues unless they wanted to for some reason.  And yes, there are some techniques that advocate speaking in tongues.  However, just because one has adopted different world views, does not mean one is going to suddenly go mad for no reason.  I'm getting the strong feeling that you and I are talking about very different things.  Shifting paradigm is nothing more or less than changing one's outlook on life/ changing one's beliefs.  For example, deliberately changing from belief in the Olympian pantheon, to belief in a world made by the One True God, or changing from theism to atheism, etc.  It sounds like you're talking about a psychotic episode.

I think we're talking about degrees of "go with it" and perhaps impulse control/awareness. There are moments in most magical practices where the practitioner looks a bit stupid or even 'psychotic'   I have a high degree of 'go with it' in my practices. 

While speaking in tongues may be a part of many paths, should one explore a state in which they were doing so on the steps of the capital building, they very well might be labeled psychotic or just plain old weird. 

For me personally, when shifting states of consciousness I become far less inhibited, from an already pretty uninhibited personality.  Because of this I keep it in mind when thinking about magical endeavors in which I may have an impulse to either improvise, or put a little *bam* into things once things are already under way. 

Whether it was a chaos experiment, or kitchen witching, I would still put in the *in case of inspiration* clause.


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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
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« Reply #62: April 21, 2007, 04:30:00 pm »

I don't think anyone else has brought up this point, and I think it's really important if you're seriously considering partaking in Communion from a Catholic church.  I don't know much about Chaos Magic, but I understand that when you're working with the paradigm of another religion, you believe completely in that religious system. 

I've not been Catholic for a long time, but from what I remember, if you partake in Holy Communion without having been accepted into the Church (baptism/first communion/confirmation) and without having confessed and been absolved of your sins, then you are committing a mortal sin.  If you believe absolutely in Catholic theology (at least as long as you are exploring this paradigm), then that would be a bad idea.

In other words, you'd be doing yourself in as far as the paradigm is concerned.  You believe absolutely in the religious system, you go against a very big rule, and so your power within that system has been undermined.  Am I missing something?  I understand that committing blasphemy may be something that a Chaote would want to do, but I didn't get the impression that that was the OP's goal.
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« Reply #63: April 21, 2007, 07:41:37 pm »

obviously you can't just walk into Mass one Sunday and eat the Host.

LMAO!

personally? i wouldnt do it.
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Mandi
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« Reply #64: April 25, 2007, 11:54:32 am »

A general reply to the thread, hence no quote.  I'm not sure specifically what it would address, but thinking about taking part in communion without being a member of a church reminds me of when hubbs and I were dating.

We were living in Santa Barbara and decided to go check out Midnight Mass on Christmas eve at the Mission.  Gorgeous place it is.  Anyways, it was an exercise in horrified and humiliated.  Up, don, up down, up down, lots of responses that everyone was well versed in but me.  Then all of a sudden (actually HOURS later) people started filing towards the front of the room.  Communion.  I unwillingly was sucked along in the masses.  Hubbs grew up Catholic, so he's well versed in the routine, and just from inertia and ritual, he was doing what he was schooled in.  He was an altar boy, Catholic school, etc. so he's feeling rather at home with it.

I'm sputtering, stuttering and protesting in his ear.  Wait... uhhh... this isn't going to work... I really don't want to do this - but the crush of people behind me was too thick to get out that way without making a scene.  I end up in front of the head honcho, and as he raises the cracker, I was able to discretely avert my eyes, and avoid being crackered.  He did a little wavy around the head blessing thing, and I was able to move out of the crowd, while after hubbs did communion, and then the wine, which was a second station on the line.

It was nearly a panic attack on the spot.  As a non-Christian, in my own core self, I could not envision someone willingly going through this as a non-Christian.  It is an exercise in wow.  I really want to get out of here.  Like NOW.  But cannot, without making a huge social scene, or otherwise embarrassing myself, or my companion.
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
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« Reply #65: April 25, 2007, 02:06:59 pm »

and avoid being crackered.

Sounds like a narrow excape. Smiley  I've been to a couple of such services, and learned after the first time to sit near the door and wait outside while any companions go up to be 'crackered'.

Seriously, I don't mind the services, although I generally feel nothing except the desire to argue in any Christian church.  I think I would panic too if I found myself in the communion line.  Just on general 'this is a sacrament that doesn't belong to me and 'someone' (theirs or mine) is gonna get mad' level.

Marilyn

Edited for style.  Two 'seriously's' in a row is more serious than I've ever been about anything.
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« Reply #66: April 25, 2007, 08:45:51 pm »


The post I am responding to is one I have linked to and to star's reply.

This got an interesting thing going in my head, instead of communion, you take on the beliefs of Christianity for a day or however long, take them on fully and live as that. I mean I could see that as being pretty powerful shift if it is pretty opposite of what you believe. Now then once you take on the beliefs and mindset of a Christian, volunteer somewhere following through with those. I would see where that could be a very acceptable compromise.
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« Reply #67: April 25, 2007, 10:44:26 pm »

Having read through this thread I have a general question:

Is Christianity in a different position than other religions when it comes to paradigm shift (exercises)? In other words, is it "out of bounds"? Why / why  not? Is it less ethical to paradigm shift into Christianity (incl. participating in rituals of said religion) than to other religions and theisms (read: monotheism instead of all the other -theisms), especially Pagan ones? Why / why not?
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« Reply #68: April 26, 2007, 01:52:26 am »

I end up in front of the head honcho, and as he raises the cracker, I was able to discretely avert my eyes, and avoid being crackered.  He did a little wavy around the head blessing thing, and I was able to move out of the crowd, while after hubbs did communion, and then the wine, which was a second station on the line.

In case you ever find yourself in this situation again, it's fine to not take the cracker and just get blessed.  Technically, you're not supposed to take Communion if you have sins that you haven't confessed yet.  A lot of people ignore this rule, but still it's totally normal just to get blessed and sit down.  Smiley
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« Reply #69: April 26, 2007, 01:56:06 am »

In case you ever find yourself in this situation again, it's fine to not take the cracker and just get blessed.  Technically, you're not supposed to take Communion if you have sins that you haven't confessed yet.  A lot of people ignore this rule, but still it's totally normal just to get blessed and sit down.  Smiley

How do you indicate to the priest that you would like to receive the blessing but not take Communion?
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« Reply #70: April 26, 2007, 02:30:39 am »

How do you indicate to the priest that you would like to receive the blessing but not take Communion?

Hm, it's been a long time since I've done this, but I think just bowing your head and not reaching for it should make the point.  Usually you're expected to put your hands out (or open your mouth!).
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« Reply #71: April 26, 2007, 03:38:00 am »

Having read through this thread I have a general question:

Is Christianity in a different position than other religions when it comes to paradigm shift (exercises)? In other words, is it "out of bounds"? Why / why  not? Is it less ethical to paradigm shift into Christianity (incl. participating in rituals of said religion) than to other religions and theisms (read: monotheism instead of all the other -theisms), especially Pagan ones? Why / why not?

Personally I wouldn't be inviting myself to the rituals of groups I'm not a permanent member of.  For one thing I don't see the point, and secondly I think it's a bit rude.  So in this sense I'm treating Christianity just like other religions.
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« Reply #72: April 26, 2007, 08:12:31 am »

Hm, it's been a long time since I've done this, but I think just bowing your head and not reaching for it should make the point.  Usually you're expected to put your hands out (or open your mouth!).

I think by dumb luck that's probably what happened.

That and it's easy to forget that people dressed in ceremonial garb don't have tunnel vision.  He probably peripherally saw all my hopping, twitching and shimmying around in line and figured something was up.
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
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« Reply #73: April 26, 2007, 08:49:02 am »

Hm, it's been a long time since I've done this, but I think just bowing your head and not reaching for it should make the point.  Usually you're expected to put your hands out (or open your mouth!).

That's pretty much what I do when I attend a service with Mom and/or Hubby and find myself in a position where I can't simply stay in my seat during communion.  (Usually this happens at a very small service, like the Easter Vigil, where there are so few people present that everyone gathers around the altar at the same time for communion instead of going up row by row.  It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.)  If for some reason the pastor doesn't get it and pauses to wait for me to put my hands out, a very very slight shake of the head gets the message across.
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« Reply #74: April 26, 2007, 08:56:05 am »

Having read through this thread I have a general question:

Is Christianity in a different position than other religions when it comes to paradigm shift (exercises)? In other words, is it "out of bounds"? Why / why  not? Is it less ethical to paradigm shift into Christianity (incl. participating in rituals of said religion) than to other religions and theisms (read: monotheism instead of all the other -theisms), especially Pagan ones? Why / why not?

What I see as out of bounds isn't Christianity itself, but the act of paricipating in what is essentially a sacrament of community when one is not, in fact, of the community.  At the very most basic level, it's a problem for me because it's not just messing with something you personally are doing, it's involving other people in your messing too.  I'd apply the same standards to any other -theism or religion, I think, though I'm having trouble thinking of specific examples right this second.

That said, the idea of temporarily adopting someone else's religion just to get what you want out of it and then leaving it kind of squicks me out a little in general, regardless.  But...  if it's going to be done, at least it should be done without imposing on other people in the process.
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Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
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I can also now be found on Goodreads.

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