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Author Topic: Not reinventing the wheel  (Read 13152 times)
sefiru
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« Topic Start: April 08, 2007, 06:07:37 am »

I'd like to know, what organized groups of Kemetic Recons currently exist, and in your opinion, where do they go wrong/not meet your expectations?

Comments about non-recon Kemetic-derived groups (eg. Temple of Set, the Wiccan one -- Thelema?) would be welcome, but they don't seem to be as relevant to what we're trying to do here.
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« Reply #1: April 08, 2007, 02:16:23 pm »

I'd like to know, what organized groups of Kemetic Recons currently exist, and in your opinion, where do they go wrong/not meet your expectations?

House of Netjer.  Arguably the first and largest Kemetic group.  OTW tendencies -- several priests have been seen saying things like "Oh, people who aren't a member of HON aren't really Kemetics, they're just Egyptian pagans."  Definite cultish tendencies if one ventures into the inner circles, and even visible from the outside (the number of KO who I see praying that they'll find a KO partner because people outside the temple just aren't good enough to marry creeps me the hell out).  I have theological issues with their tendency to equate any god that resembles another one at the drop of a hat.  They have a Nisut, and all the problems related to that.  Heavy on the African Diaspora influences, which is neutral of itself, but worth noting.

Per Ankh.  HON lite.  The beginner's class as I went through it was full of, "We are not a cult, unlike Some Temples.  Write us an essay about why we are not a cult."  To which my response was, more or less, "Dude, that's your responsibility, not mine."  Controlling of contacts with others -- senior priesthood attempted to require junior priesthood to avoid having contacts with disapproved others in livejournal.  (After requiring that the junior priesthood have LJs to keep in touch with parts of the Kemetic community.)  Senior priesthood did not understand that this particular attempted mandate was wildly, madly creepy and indicated an unhealthy level of attempted control over the personal lives of the congregation and junior priesthood.  Does not have a Nisut; has a senior priest who is presumed to be deputised to carry the Kingly Ka.  So Nisut-lite.

Per Heh.  Honestly I don't know much about them other than that their priest who is most active in my purview is quite batty.  Has a Nisut.

Akhet Hwt-Hrw.  The only one of the temples I know of that charges for basic instructional classes.  Kicked a bunch of people off their mailing lists because this is a school, and we can't have that free discussion, so only paying members and The Special People Who Are Exceptions get to be on the list.  I know very little about their theology; I believe they have rule by group-of-priests.

Church of the Eternal Source:  from my experience with them, a going at Egyptian religion through a filter of Western esotericism.  Extremely snide about not being Kemetic, nuh-uh, those people are posers.  Very cranky about attempts to reconstruct Egyptian language and use it ritually.  Had a ritual to Sekhmet at PantheaCon in 2006, used a Bast statue.  (A friend who is dedicated to both Bast and Sekhmet said that the result was a syncretised goddess, which, okay, but damnit, people.)


For the non-reconish groups --

When I read Circle of Isis, the Tameran Wicca base book, I was impressed with the little writeups of the gods.  (My first thing on seeing a book with Egyptian gods in it is to check the Set section to see if it sucks.  And amazingly, it failed to suck.)  My overall impression is that Ellen Cannon Reed was familiar with the same gods that I am.

What I've read from the Temple of Set is that they are quite familiar with Big Red, but because they've pulled Him out of his cultural context so hard, they're missing the fact that He's a part of a system, and thus spin into dysfunction.  They charge for entry.

I've had very little practical experience with Thelemites to comment on their stuff.
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« Reply #2: April 09, 2007, 06:20:57 am »

House of Netjer.  Arguably the first and largest Kemetic group.  OTW tendencies -- several priests have been seen saying things like "Oh, people who aren't a member of HON aren't really Kemetics, they're just Egyptian pagans."  Definite cultish tendencies if one ventures into the inner circles, and even visible from the outside (the number of KO who I see praying that they'll find a KO partner because people outside the temple just aren't good enough to marry creeps me the hell out).  I have theological issues with their tendency to equate any god that resembles another one at the drop of a hat.  They have a Nisut, and all the problems related to that.  Heavy on the African Diaspora influences, which is neutral of itself, but worth noting.

Just to clarify, this is the group sometimes called "Kemetic Orthodox"? Are they the ones with that female Nisut that wrote al lot of essays?

Per Ankh.  HON lite.  The beginner's class as I went through it was full of, "We are not a cult, unlike Some Temples.  Write us an essay about why we are not a cult."  To which my response was, more or less, "Dude, that's your responsibility, not mine."  Controlling of contacts with others -- senior priesthood attempted to require junior priesthood to avoid having contacts with disapproved others in livejournal.  (After requiring that the junior priesthood have LJs to keep in touch with parts of the Kemetic community.)  Senior priesthood did not understand that this particular attempted mandate was wildly, madly creepy and indicated an unhealthy level of attempted control over the personal lives of the congregation and junior priesthood.  Does not have a Nisut; has a senior priest who is presumed to be deputised to carry the Kingly Ka.  So Nisut-lite.

That is, indeed, very creepy. What did you cover in the beginner's class?


Church of the Eternal Source:  from my experience with them, a going at Egyptian religion through a filter of Western esotericism.  Extremely snide about not being Kemetic, nuh-uh, those people are posers.  Very cranky about attempts to reconstruct Egyptian language and use it ritually.  Had a ritual to Sekhmet at PantheaCon in 2006, used a Bast statue.  (A friend who is dedicated to both Bast and Sekhmet said that the result was a syncretised goddess, which, okay, but damnit, people.)


*giggle* you think they couldn't tell the difference between a cat and a lioness? The thing about esotericism makes me wonder if they subscribe to Pyramidiocy ("Measurements of the Great Pyramid predicted 9/11!")

I should add, if anyone *likes* anything one of these groups is doing, I'd like to hear that too.
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« Reply #3: April 09, 2007, 12:00:40 pm »

Re: HoN
Just to clarify, this is the group sometimes called "Kemetic Orthodox"? Are they the ones with that female Nisut that wrote al lot of essays?

You are correct, the HoN is also known as the Kemetic Orthodoxy.  Their Nisut, Tamara Siuda, has a Masters in Egyptology (concentration in Philology), and is almost finished with her second Masters degree in Coptic Studies.  She has several publications under her belt, as well as an appearance as a talking head in a History Channel documentary on the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

I'm currently taking the HoN's Beginner's Class, which is . . . interesting.  I'm reserving all judgement, however, until after it's over.  I'm just sitting back, watching, reading, learning, soaking it all in.  Then afterwards, we'll see.  We shall see.  I could say a few things about what I've seen (read), and attitudes towards...attitudes, and wonders about some practices.  But I wont.  I'm zipping my lips and sitting on my hands until after the class is over.  I want to give it a real chance, as best as I can!
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« Reply #4: April 09, 2007, 12:22:04 pm »




I agree with most of what you said. 

Akhet Hethert also has books out.  Kerry Wisner's Eye of the Sun and Song of Hathor. 

As someone who was a priest candidate in Per Ankh, I'd like to say that I was kicked out/left for another reason, but it did have to do with controlling what I did.  But that was years ago, so maybe they've changed now, I don't know. 

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« Reply #5: April 09, 2007, 04:24:41 pm »

When I read Circle of Isis, the Tameran Wicca base book, I was impressed with the little writeups of the gods.  (My first thing on seeing a book with Egyptian gods in it is to check the Set section to see if it sucks.  And amazingly, it failed to suck.)  My overall impression is that Ellen Cannon Reed was familiar with the same gods that I am.
A small nit to pick:  while that may be the base book used by Tameran Wicca, Ellen Cannon Reed's tradition was (Western) Isian.

As far as I can tell, "Tameran Wicca" isn't a trad in any cohesive way, it's just a catchall term for Eclectic Wiccans who like an Egyptian-flavored practice, for which Circle of Isis naturally became the resource book.

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« Reply #6: April 18, 2007, 03:48:24 pm »

Quote
House of Netjer.  Arguably the first and largest Kemetic group.  OTW tendencies -- several priests have been seen saying things like "Oh, people who aren't a member of HON aren't really Kemetics, they're just Egyptian pagans."  Definite cultish tendencies if one ventures into the inner circles, and even visible from the outside (the number of KO who I see praying that they'll find a KO partner because people outside the temple just aren't good enough to marry creeps me the hell out).  I have theological issues with their tendency to equate any god that resembles another one at the drop of a hat.  They have a Nisut, and all the problems related to that.  Heavy on the African Diaspora influences, which is neutral of itself, but worth noting.

A couple things to add about their forums, the first being that when I poked my head in back around June or so, they had very few competent mods. The few upper echelon priests that were there seemed more interested in fuelling the fire of stupid debates than in clarifying issues or disciplining people. Also, they had everyone's IP addresses out there for all to see. I know a lot of sites log them but making it so that just anyone who wanders by can see them always made me uncomfortable.
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« Reply #7: May 06, 2007, 12:53:53 am »

I've had very little practical experience with Thelemites to comment on their stuff.

There are definitely Egyptian references in Thelema, and it helps to know about Egyptian stuff.  But it's definitely it's own peculiar thing.  Wink

I generally use different spellings when I'm talking about deities from a more Kemetic or Thelemic perspective.  (Nut vs. Nuit, for example.)

(I should also point out that like everything else Thelemic, this varies a *lot* from practitioner to practitioner.)
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« Reply #8: September 12, 2007, 05:07:32 pm »

House of Netjer.  Arguably the first and largest Kemetic group.  OTW tendencies -- several priests have been seen saying things like "Oh, people who aren't a member of HON aren't really Kemetics, they're just Egyptian pagans."  Definite cultish tendencies if one ventures into the inner circles, and even visible from the outside (the number of KO who I see praying that they'll find a KO partner because people outside the temple just aren't good enough to marry creeps me the hell out).  I have theological issues with their tendency to equate any god that resembles another one at the drop of a hat.  They have a Nisut, and all the problems related to that.  Heavy on the African Diaspora influences, which is neutral of itself, but worth noting.

      I've had some rather inflammatory run-ins with the Kemetic Orthodoxy (when I'm really riled I refer to them as the Kemetic Idiocy). I met a friend who's been a longtime member, she goes by the divination name they gave her. She encouraged me to join their message boards and look into the group, and so I waltzed right out of one cult (Soka Gakkai International, a jack-Buddhist cult) and into the morass that is KO.

      I'm in the process of writing and illustrating a manga based on the Myth of Kingship (Horus and Set). In Issue Two there's a bit where Horus explains for the young heroine, and thusly the audience, the major points of the myth. My friend Sah kept saying the folks at HoN/KO would love my manga, so I posted a clip of the dialogue recounting the myth. What happened next infuriated the ever-living >insert expletive< out of me.

      Basically some retard "Set kid" (I have a real problem with the cliques that have formed around their "Parent Names" system) posted and said, no, I had it wrong. He posted some ridiculous apologetic recount of the story of Set killing Osiris that came across as a bad rehash of the movie "Rashomon" and completely insulted my intelligence. Set was reluctant to kill Osiris, but knew the dead needed a Nisut too? And the other 'Names' were cool with it? Come on. And worse, all his little friends chimed in and posted snickering comments about his misspellings. My original post was pretty much ignored.

     At the same time that was going on, these Set kids who'd appointed themselves the "Set Defense League" started posting links to sites with historical information that didn't reflect their little fantasy and started harassing the webmasters via email. One of the priests had to step in and tell them to stop.

     So I stopped posting on their boards and wrote them off. But Sah kept saying I needed to give them another chance, and she would even stay at our place right before going to their annual retreat since we live along her route to Chicago. Talk about getting a dose! She even posted on their /private/ boards (another feature I disagree with) about how upset I was, and then emailed me a list of people willing to talk to me. So I gave in and posted again, and suggested that if they want to seem less cult-like then they should consider things like having moderators on the boards and arbitration. Then somebody responded with "How dare you, a newb, tell us how to run our boards". So I decided I was better off ignoring them.
I'd posted that I could assure they weren't a cult, having been in a real one, but the more I learn the more I'm mentally revising that assessment. I won't bother passing that on to them.

    What has sealed them up in my opinion as persona non grata was what happened to my friend before this retreat. She's a high-functioning autistic, and just started teaching one of her dogs to be a service animal. There's no established program to train dogs as autism helpers here in the US, but just the informal training her dog's had is helping her to not run into things, walk into traffic, etc. Well, she took him with her to our place prior to retreat. But on the boards, everyone raised a hue and cry. That dog isn't allowed in the ceremonies, it has to stay in your hotel room, you have to have papers for the state of Illinois, etc. etc. Well, it just so happens that my fiance works at an advocacy center for the disabled, and he called up a sister chapter in IL. They said that dog can legally go with her everywhere except an operating room. And KO is a 501c3 non-profit, so they legally are putting themselves in a VERY bad position by denying her access with her service dog.

     She didn't go to retreat this year, but she won't do anything about what happened because if she does, they'll kick her out. She said that she could get kicked out just for showing me the private discussions on their boards. The more we hear from her, the more it sounds like they've taken advantage of her. But her autism prevents her from changing out of a comfort zone that she's been in as long as her membership in KO. And I've read one of their Nisut's responses to her (my fiance coined the term Me-sut) and it was really condescending. But our poor friend can't really comprehend that, and won't leave the group. We'll see if they actually let her bring the dog next year or not.

     I have some doctrinal problems with their system--having somebody 'divine' your group name and who your "Parent" is, their insistence on monolatry, their re-invention of Set, and not to mention the whole "kingly Ka" business... I had an experience once that roughly matches what my friend explained the kingly Ka as being, but like they'd be willing to even listen to my story! But what they did to my friend is actually what sews them up for me. I won't have anything more to do with them and would actively encourage others to find something better. That's why I'm so glad to be here, because I can actually talk with Kemetics who aren't psychos.

--Tut
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« Reply #9: September 12, 2007, 07:49:32 pm »



I'm sorry to hear about the way your friend was treated. 

I would like to say that historically, Set killing Wesir was recorded in the 6th Dynasty.  Originally, as far as we can tell from AE sources, Wesir drowned in the Nile.  Set was also a god of kingship along with Heru. 

Darkhawk's essay on Set: Elbow Room for the Other  http://www.bunny-puppy.net/folk/elbows.html
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« Reply #10: September 12, 2007, 08:09:57 pm »

I've had some rather inflammatory run-ins with the Kemetic Orthodoxy (when I'm really riled I refer to them as the Kemetic Idiocy).

Hmm, I guess this is the part where I make a full disclosure that I am a shemsu in the KO.  And while I am not doubt your story of dramarama, I cant help but take a little bit of umbrage over this post dragging in completely unrelated gossip and drama from a completely different forum, and .. well .. bashing my religion.
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« Reply #11: September 12, 2007, 08:57:39 pm »

I cant help but take a little bit of umbrage over this post dragging in completely unrelated gossip and drama from a completely different forum, and .. well .. bashing my religion.

I don't see any real difference between this post and posts many people have made over the years describing negative experiences they've had with Christianity or Christian groups -- or my descriptions of some of the folks from that late 60s and early 70s that gave BTW a bad name. While such things probably feel like bashing to members of the affected religions, giving negative experiences with other religions is not usually considered bashing a religion here. It certainly can be at times, but these does not look like such an example to me.
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« Reply #12: September 12, 2007, 09:54:51 pm »

Hmm, I guess this is the part where I make a full disclosure that I am a shemsu in the KO. 

Congrats on the Shemsuness!

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« Reply #13: September 13, 2007, 02:12:03 am »


Speaking here as the SIG moderator, but not entirely mod hat on:

I am well aware that HON and several other Kemetic organisations inspire some very strong emotions in people.  I have experiences of my own with several.

It is my strong preference to refer to those organisations, including the ones I have personal issues with, by their proper names; similarly their leadership and their titles.  I do not believe it is inappropriate to discuss the issues with the various Kemetic organisations, but if name games and such expression of contempt have free rein on this board, our members who are, for example, Kemetic Orthodox will be excluded from the conversation by the hostility.  I would appreciate it if critique for those organisations can be phrased without disparaging their persons or titles within their organisation, as the KO members of the board have just as much a right to free expression and discussion as those who are personally hostile to HON (and the same holds for any other organisation).

Also: under no circumstances do I consider language such as "some retard 'Set kid'" appropriate.  That is a personal attack, admittedly directed at someone who is not on this board; I will not be having it on my turf.

This SIG is intended to be discussion space accessible to all our Kemetic and Kemetic-interested members.  I am well aware of the touchiness of the issue of Kemetic organisations, as it is a major portion of why I consider myself neo-reconstructionist rather than recon; I believe it is possible to raise those issues and discuss them stooping to insults to the people involved with those organisations, and that is the standard to which I will hold this group.
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« Reply #14: September 13, 2007, 11:44:40 am »

Congrats on the Shemsuness!
Thanks Smiley  I was just recently divined this past Saturday, and it was such an amazing experience, I'm still not able to put it all into words.  It's just like, suddenly, I make sense.  So taking the Shemsu vows (to serve the gods in my lineup before all others) was a VERY easy thing for me to do.

Being a part of KO has been very good for me.  I'm far too lazy to be a solitary with having doing all of the research, meditation, interpretation, and research on my own.  I'm too busy doing research, writing, interpretation, and research for school and work. (Did I mention the research? CRIPES!)  I'm liking riding on somebody else's coattails: people who have dedicated a good portion of their lives (in at least one case, their ENTIRE life) to doing all that research and interpretation and can dumb it down for a layperson like me.

It frees me up to do MY work, that I am best suited for and most called to do.  Then others can ride on MY coattails, freeing them up to do things that they are best suited to do, and on it goes Wink
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