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Author Topic: Not reinventing the wheel  (Read 24719 times)
SharonTut
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« Reply #15: September 13, 2007, 04:44:22 pm »

I do not believe it is inappropriate to discuss the issues with the various Kemetic organisations, but if name games and such expression of contempt have free rein on this board, our members who are, for example, Kemetic Orthodox will be excluded from the conversation by the hostility.

    I apologize for the durogatory remarks. I've just had an extreme level of pent-up frustration
about my experiences, and it spilled into my post.

    Congrats on becoming a Shemsu, Zahira. I just couldn't do it myself, not after everything I went
through and seeing what happened to my friend. I hope they treat you well.

    I'd still like to compare notes with fellow Indies, though.

--Sharon "Tut"
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 04:46:44 pm by HeartShadow - Genevieve Wood, Reason: fixing quote tag only » Logged

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Chabas
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« Reply #16: September 14, 2007, 01:05:24 am »

    I'd still like to compare notes with fellow Indies, though.

There's plenty of us around as well, don't worry. Cheesy

--Chabas
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sefiru
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« Reply #17: September 14, 2007, 05:48:22 am »

     At the same time that was going on, these Set kids who'd appointed themselves the "Set Defense League" started posting links to sites with historical information that didn't reflect their little fantasy and started harassing the webmasters via email. One of the priests had to step in and tell them to stop.

Hey, I'm a Set kid, and these folks sound like weenies to me. Since when does Set need defending from anything? Huh Oh, and I'd love to see that manga of yours, even if Big Red is the baddie in the story. Wink
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SharonTut
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« Reply #18: September 14, 2007, 05:09:21 pm »

Hey, I'm a Set kid, and these folks sound like weenies to me. Since when does Set need defending from anything? Huh Oh, and I'd love to see that manga of yours, even if Big Red is the baddie in the story. Wink

     Thanks, I'll try to include a link to a page about the manga from my website. Smiley

     I actually have no problem with people who worship Set in his _early Dynastic_ form. It's common
archaeological knowledge that his worship as a god of strength, storms, and the desert dates back to
even before Dynastic times and continued on in the Delta region--hence pharaohs named Seti. And had
the people in question just clarified and said, "We follow the Archaic aspect of Set", I would have been
perfectly cool with that. More power to anyone able to back up their position with facts. That being
said, though, the widespread adoption of the Myth of Kingship gave Set another role that continued
to develop throughout pharaonic history, and that was as a god of chaos, usurpation and negative
aspects. For many common Egyptians, Set was probably the bad guy in all the fables and bedtime
stories that illustrated right and wrong. (In fact, I once wrote an essay about how the modern
fictional character of Megatron--yeah, the one from "Transformers"--served a purpose of good by
playing the role of villain in what was basically a children's morality tale. I think Set would have
been an ancient precedent for him.)
      One of my big problems with modern groups is that they over-correct to an extreme. Instead of
just saying, "Hey, Set had an older form that wasn't totally bad," they basically say "Hey, Set's not
evil at all, and anyone who thinks so is a Greek-biased (or Christian-biased) wannabe!!!!" And it's just
as insulting to those of us who value Set as an anti-hero as it would be to discredit his Archaic aspect
to those who embrace it. He has value in both roles.

       Anyway, here's the link: http://tutstoys.awardspace.com/Horus.htm

       Enjoy,

--Sharon "Tut"
       
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Bastemhet
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« Reply #19: December 30, 2009, 07:46:56 pm »

Akhet Hethert also has books out.  Kerry Wisner's Eye of the Sun and Song of Hathor.

I have the Eye of the Sun.  It is an attempt at a primer on Kemetic recon.  Some of the Daily Rite is taken from a book by Budge that is cited as published in 1902, no name. There are a handful of books that are published by him in that year, so I have no idea which one Wisner is talking about.  Other parts taken from Sauneron's book on Egyptian priests and Hart's dictionary of Egyptian gods.  Monolatrous interpretation of netjer, with a strong need to continually talk about Ra as masculine aspect and Hwt-Hwr as feminine aspect of deity.  I don't know if this is historically accurate.  Also part of the rite includes walking around the altar in a clockwise circle while tossing natron or sand, but the reason why it must be clockwise is never explained.  Hermetic idea "as above, so below" is also used to justify her beliefs a few times.  Has a tendency to take any similarity with other goddesses as justification to fold other goddess deities into aspects of Hwt-Hwr, including Bast, Ma'at, and Aset.

While parts of the book were useful in me finding out stuff I didn't know, I didn't particularly like the tunnel vision it was presented to me in.
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SatAset
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« Reply #20: December 30, 2009, 08:01:51 pm »

I have the Eye of the Sun.  It is an attempt at a primer on Kemetic recon.  Some of the Daily Rite is taken from a book by Budge that is cited as published in 1902, no name. There are a handful of books that are published by him in that year, so I have no idea which one Wisner is talking about.  Other parts taken from Sauneron's book on Egyptian priests and Hart's dictionary of Egyptian gods.  Monolatrous interpretation of netjer, with a strong need to continually talk about Ra as masculine aspect and Hwt-Hwr as feminine aspect of deity.  I don't know if this is historically accurate.  Also part of the rite includes walking around the altar in a clockwise circle while tossing natron or sand, but the reason why it must be clockwise is never explained.  Hermetic idea "as above, so below" is also used to justify her beliefs a few times.  Has a tendency to take any similarity with other goddesses as justification to fold other goddess deities into aspects of Hwt-Hwr, including Bast, Ma'at, and Aset.

While parts of the book were useful in me finding out stuff I didn't know, I didn't particularly like the tunnel vision it was presented to me in.


I've heard--I think Darkhawk mentioned this actually--that they seem to have some ceremonial magic influences.  As far as I can recall, within the daily temple ritual in AE, there is a circling of the altar with incense, 4 times. 

Many temple hymns equate gods and goddesses with eachother.  This is not a modern thing.  This is from ancient sources.  This was often done as "Aset in your name of X" or "Hethert in your Name of Y". 

Many Egyptologists view AE religion as a combination of polytheism and soft monotheism (often as henotheism/monolatry).  In Complete Gods and Goddesses by Richard Wilkinson, he has an essay on this subject which explains the history of it. 
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« Reply #21: December 30, 2009, 09:49:10 pm »


I've heard--I think Darkhawk mentioned this actually--that they seem to have some ceremonial magic influences.  As far as I can recall, within the daily temple ritual in AE, there is a circling of the altar with incense, 4 times.  

That might explain it.  She mentioned that Egyptian ritual is nothing like Wiccan ritual and then proceeded with the clockwise stuff that sounded like, well, Wiccan ritual.  

Quote
Many temple hymns equate gods and goddesses with eachother.  This is not a modern thing.  This is from ancient sources.  This was often done as "Aset in your name of X" or "Hethert in your Name of Y".  

Many Egyptologists view AE religion as a combination of polytheism and soft monotheism (often as henotheism/monolatry).  In Complete Gods and Goddesses by Richard Wilkinson, he has an essay on this subject which explains the history of it.  

I don't agree with those Egyptologists, and I'm inclined to agree with Hornung when he desribes this.  We often encounter a syncretized form of Re with other gods, e.g. Amon-Re, Khnum-Re, and Re-Atum. A common factor is that whenever these other gods are viewed in a creative capacity, Egyptians recognize these gods as Re. Or perhaps, for a specific example, that the creative power of Khnum is also another manifestation of power that is attributed to the sun god Re. (Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt, 20)  How we know the gods is by their title.  We don't know their name.  So it makes sense that if I say Aset in your name of x it would mean Aset in x capacity.  It does not mean Aset is the same as x title-of-god.

I personally find it an affront to equate one god with another just because they share similar abilities and spheres of influence.  Anyway I write about this at length in the thread that Nehet posted about monolatry, if you're interested.  I don't want to go off topic in this one.
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SatAset
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« Reply #22: December 31, 2009, 12:19:45 am »

So it makes sense that if I say Aset in your name of x it would mean Aset in x capacity.  It does not mean Aset is the same as x title-of-god.

I would agree with you here and now back to our scheduled thread topic. 
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« Reply #23: January 01, 2010, 04:57:20 pm »

Akhet Hwt-Hrw.  The only one of the temples I know of that charges for basic instructional classes.  Kicked a bunch of people off their mailing lists because this is a school, and we can't have that free discussion, so only paying members and The Special People Who Are Exceptions get to be on the list.  I know very little about their theology; I believe they have rule by group-of-priests.
I have the sense that you are reporting second or third hand on the issue of free discussion being suppressed. Perhaps your source was one of those folks who, four or five years ago, were engaging in flaming other folks on their discussion list. I do know that the moderator Kerry Wisner was quite careful and respectful of people's feelings and would advise people that flaming or name-calling was not allowed. i think a lot of groups do the same thing--warn those who use the anonymity of these forums to name-call and attack others. After several warnings the offenders are removed from the list. Makes sense to me.
As for the issue of paying for coursework, I see no reason why a teacher cannot charge a fee. I have taken Kerry Wisner's course and found that he responded to my homework assignments with thoroughness, solid guidance, and respect. In other words he was not doing it solely for the fee. We pay tutors and all sorts of folk with specialized knowledge or skills. Why not pay somebody in this area as well?

Akhet Hwt-Hrw also sells some good books on Egpyptian theology, ritual, and magic for $39.95 and I think they are a good investment. I am not aware of alien influences in his presentations on Egyptian topics. I have the sense that he tries to keep such stuff out of his books.
As for any discussion list, I do not believe there has been an active one in several years--Mr. Wisner and his wife are very busy professionals and with the press of job-duties he was not able to continue moderating such a group.
I suggest people visit their website and judge for themselves: www.hwt-hrw.com
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« Reply #24: January 01, 2010, 05:39:24 pm »

Akhet Hwt-Hrw also sells some good books on Egpyptian theology, ritual, and magic for $39.95 and I think they are a good investment. I am not aware of alien influences in his presentations on Egyptian topics. I have the sense that he tries to keep such stuff out of his books.
As for any discussion list, I do not believe there has been an active one in several years--Mr. Wisner and his wife are very busy professionals and with the press of job-duties he was not able to continue moderating such a group.
I suggest people visit their website and judge for themselves: www.hwt-hrw.com

As mentioned above, I have "Eye of the Sun."  There are hermetic (11, 13) and ceremonial magic (109) influences as I mentioned, and I've recently finished the book so I'd like to also comment on other things I found questionable.  One of which is that he uses an understanding from the Kybalion that the universe is mental to talk about Ma'at: "to [experience Ma'at] is to come into contact with the true essence of oneself and the universe." (107)  Doesn't that seem like superimposing more modern beliefs onto ancient religion?  If I'm mistaken that this is supposed to be a reconstructionist approach, then it doesn't matter.  But to present ideas from the Kybalion (108) and from the Tao Te Ching (108) as equivalent to Egyptian ideas is misleading- and so is comparing Ma'at to karma (107).  He also presents Egyptian thought as a monistic soft polytheism which I haven't seen supported in primary and secondary sources.  *shrug*  This temple's approach is not what I'd personally want for myself since there are other elements incorporated that I don't agree with, but if it works for others, then I hope they can see the difference between ancient thought and modern superimposing of other foreign influences.
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« Reply #25: January 01, 2010, 05:39:58 pm »

I have the sense that you are reporting second or third hand on the issue of free discussion being suppressed. Perhaps your source was one of those folks who, four or five years ago, were engaging in flaming other folks on their discussion list. I do know that the moderator Kerry Wisner was quite careful and respectful of people's feelings and would advise people that flaming or name-calling was not allowed. i think a lot of groups do the same thing--warn those who use the anonymity of these forums to name-call and attack others. After several warnings the offenders are removed from the list. Makes sense to me.

Nope, I'm reporting my actual experience of having been thrown off the list for the stated reason that they were uninterested in hosting open discussion anymore.
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« Reply #26: January 01, 2010, 09:01:14 pm »

Nope, I'm reporting my actual experience of having been thrown off the list for the stated reason that they were uninterested in hosting open discussion anymore.

I am finding this thread to be useful as I have just started the Akhet Hwt-Hrw beginner course. Hearing from you all regarding the foreign/ceremonial influences in the courses will be helpful to me as I would rather lean toward the stricter side of reconstructionism. I do intend to continue with the course so having this information will be good.

When I signed up for the course, I also signed up for an email list, but nothing is ever posted to it.

--Leslie
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« Reply #27: January 01, 2010, 09:48:25 pm »

As mentioned above, I have "Eye of the Sun."  There are hermetic (11, 13) and ceremonial magic (109) influences as I mentioned, and I've recently finished the book so I'd like to also comment on other things I found questionable.  One of which is that he uses an understanding from the Kybalion that the universe is mental to talk about Ma'at: "to [experience Ma'at] is to come into contact with the true essence of oneself and the universe." (107) 
I consulted your page references in Eye of the Sun and not a single one appeared. My edition is from 2000. You likely have a revised edition, and undoubtedly one of later (more recent) date. I'm sorry that the author has gone off in those directions. They are so unnecessary. The Egyptian spiritual vision does not need any such foreign "enhancements.'" Thanks for bringing me up to date.
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« Reply #28: January 01, 2010, 09:58:26 pm »

I am finding this thread to be useful as I have just started the Akhet Hwt-Hrw beginner course. Hearing from you all regarding the foreign/ceremonial influences in the courses will be helpful to me as I would rather lean toward the stricter side of reconstructionism. I do intend to continue with the course so having this information will be good.
--Leslie
Leslie, I  suggest you ask that temple's moderator about these and any other foreign influences on what Akhet Hwt-Hrw is currently teaching. Bastemhet has given a number of references to pages in his one book that are problematic for a Reconstructionist, so it would be informative to discuss them directly with Kerry Wisner.
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« Reply #29: January 01, 2010, 10:15:43 pm »

I consulted your page references in Eye of the Sun and not a single one appeared. My edition is from 2000. You likely have a revised edition, and undoubtedly one of later (more recent) date.

I have the second edition, copyright 2002.

Quote
I'm sorry that the author has gone off in those directions. They are so unnecessary. The Egyptian spiritual vision does not need any such foreign "enhancements.'"

Much agreed. 
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