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Author Topic: D & D 4th Edition  (Read 21918 times)
RandallS
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« Reply #30: March 03, 2010, 08:25:10 pm »

OK, that's seriously awesome.  Thanks!

It's one of a number of "retro-clones" of older versions of D&D available.

Original D&D (1974-1976 stuff aka 0e)
Swords & Wizardry: Two different versions (Core and Whitebox, Whitebox is the original three booklets only)  Lots of supplements available, most free.

Microlite74: A version of Microlite20 emulating 0e via a very rules lite version of 3.x. Designed by me so I'm biased. One supplement available.

Basic/Expert D&D (the first version 1982 or so aka B/X)
Basic Fantasy RPG: A variant version of B/X where the races and classes are separate. Lots of supplements available, most free.

Labyrinth Lord: Very close to the original B/X with races as classes.  There is a supplement for using LL to recreate something like 0e, Original Edition Characters -- unfortunately, no free version ofd the supplement. There is another supplement for using LL to recreate something like AD&D 1e, Advanced Edition Companion -- a free version is available.

AD&D 1e
OSRIC: I already mentioned this one.
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« Reply #31: March 03, 2010, 08:28:24 pm »

4e is boring as hell if you aren't interested in LONG combats -- especially if you aren't interested in long combats where the "tactics" being stressed are rules-based instead of realism-based. 3.x was bad enough combat-wise, but 4e takes it to new levels of long and gamey.  That said, if combats with minis and battlemats is the main thing you play D&D for, 4e is a great game.

It has a completely different feel in play than any previous versions of D&D and it stresses a style of play that I do not enjoy while making it almost impossible to play in the styles I do enjoy. For me, it's the worst version of D&D ever -- and I've been playing since 1975.

I agree that it is different, but long combats? 

They implemented minions, and now you can actually pit the characters against a viable zombie apocalypse / goblin horde / BBEG + 30 toadies.

Your dailies and action points help speed up the combat as well.

But, again, I agree.  It does feel different.

Still fun though.  Cheesy
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« Reply #32: March 03, 2010, 08:48:34 pm »

I agree that it is different, but long combats?

Combats in TSR versions of D&D (before 2.5e's skills and powers supplements) was very abstract and very fast. Combats in my games averaged 5 to 10 minutes. 20-30 for truly complex epic combats with lots of monsters and characters involved. Combat in 3.x and 4e seems to take 40 minutes at a minimum, and most seem to take much longer.

Quote
They implemented minions, and now you can actually pit the characters against a viable zombie apocalypse / goblin horde / BBEG + 30 toadies.

Minions aren't a new idea (just new to the official rules), but even without minions such a combat would probably only take 15-20 minutes in my games. With fast combats, you can either get a lot more combats in a 4 or 5 hour game session or have a few combats and lots of time for the more interesting (to me and my players, at least) non-combat stuff.

Quote
Still fun though.  Cheesy

Some folks find it a lot of fun, others don't find it much fun. I still stand by my list of things I do not like about 4e from 2008 in reply #4 in this thread.
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« Reply #33: March 03, 2010, 11:26:06 pm »

4e is boring as hell if you aren't interested in LONG combats -- especially if you aren't interested in long combats where the "tactics" being stressed are rules-based instead of realism-based. 3.x was bad enough combat-wise, but 4e takes it to new levels of long and gamey.  That said, if combats with minis and battlemats is the main thing you play D&D for, 4e is a great game.

It has a completely different feel in play than any previous versions of D&D and it stresses a style of play that I do not enjoy while making it almost impossible to play in the styles I do enjoy. For me, it's the worst version of D&D ever -- and I've been playing since 1975.

That's a lot of why we never bothered to try and convert.  We preferred focus on non-fighting skills, story telling and roleplaying.  We have had several very productive gaming sessions where we seldom picked up the dice.  4e feels more like warhammer or something. 
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« Reply #34: March 05, 2010, 03:09:58 am »

We preferred focus on non-fighting skills, story telling and roleplaying.  We have had several very productive gaming sessions where we seldom picked up the dice.
My kind of game, my kind of gamers.

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« Reply #35: March 05, 2010, 03:18:53 am »

It's one of a number of "retro-clones" of older versions of D&D available.
<snipped lots o' linkies>
Oooh - while I'm a 3.0/3.5 gal, my "history geek" side intersects enough with my "gamer geek" side that this made me bounce gleefully.  Almost like running across a complete collection of rulebooks from 0e onwards at a garage sale for half nothing!  (While I'd be tickled to own the core bookset for each and every edition, either finding all of them at one garage sale or getting them for half nothing is unlikely; both at once is fantastically improbable.)

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« Reply #36: March 05, 2010, 03:27:45 am »

Also, I'm happy to learn such a quick and simple way (0e) to refer to the very first version.  I imagine I'll still find myself explaining it a lot (shocking how many people think, "There was Basic, and then it was expanded to AD&D," represents the start point), but now I have a short noun (okay, nouned adjective) for the direct referent.

Sunflower
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« Reply #37: March 05, 2010, 08:15:36 am »

Also, I'm happy to learn such a quick and simple way (0e) to refer to the very first version.  I imagine I'll still find myself explaining it a lot (shocking how many people think, "There was Basic, and then it was expanded to AD&D," represents the start point), but now I have a short noun (okay, nouned adjective) for the direct referent.

Original D&D split into two branches because of Dave Arneson's lawsuit settlement with TSR over AD&D (which cut him out of the royalities). AD&D went off in one direction and D&D went in another. For D&D, first their were the two box set Basic/Expert edition (also called Moldvay/Cook after the authors/editors). This was followed by the five box set BECMI edition in the mid-1980 (Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortals by Frank Mentzer). In the early 1990s, Aaron Allston cleaned this up a bit to produce what is probably the best one book version of D&D ever: the Rules Cyclopedia. If you get one older edition, this is probably the book to get. Meanwhile, AD&D went on to 2nd Edition in 1987 or so and got very weird in the 1990s.
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« Reply #38: March 05, 2010, 08:44:36 pm »

Original D&D split into two branches because of Dave Arneson's lawsuit settlement with TSR over AD&D (which cut him out of the royalities). AD&D went off in one direction and D&D went in another. For D&D, first their were the two box set Basic/Expert edition (also called Moldvay/Cook after the authors/editors). This was followed by the five box set BECMI edition in the mid-1980 (Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortals by Frank Mentzer). In the early 1990s, Aaron Allston cleaned this up a bit to produce what is probably the best one book version of D&D ever: the Rules Cyclopedia. If you get one older edition, this is probably the book to get. Meanwhile, AD&D went on to 2nd Edition in 1987 or so and got very weird in the 1990s.

What do you mean 'got weird in the 90s'?

THAC0... *shivers*
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« Reply #39: March 05, 2010, 09:50:53 pm »

What do you mean 'got weird in the 90s'?

The start of the splat books from hell syndrome. The Player's Option stuff. Etc.  The stuff that eventually led to the over-complexity of 3.x and to the combat-centeric 4e -- neither of which do anything for me.

Quote
THAC0... *shivers*

I never saw anything wrong with it. It doesn't seem any better or any worse than having a to-hit table or the D20 method or any of a number of similar methods. It's like all the arguments about ascending or descending armor class -- differences which makes no real difference -- except in the eye of the beholder.
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« Reply #40: March 06, 2010, 12:54:05 am »

Original D&D split into two branches because of Dave Arneson's lawsuit settlement with TSR over AD&D (which cut him out of the royalities). AD&D went off in one direction and D&D went in another. For D&D, first their were the two box set Basic/Expert edition (also called Moldvay/Cook after the authors/editors). This was followed by the five box set BECMI edition in the mid-1980 (Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortals by Frank Mentzer). In the early 1990s, Aaron Allston cleaned this up a bit to produce what is probably the best one book version of D&D ever: the Rules Cyclopedia. If you get one older edition, this is probably the book to get. Meanwhile, AD&D went on to 2nd Edition in 1987 or so and got very weird in the 1990s.
<absorbs gamer history>

Some of this I knew, some I was only sort of aware of, some I didn't know.  As with many of the thinks I history-geek about, I'm a very far cry from really being an expert; I just know more than yer average dice-roller.  Thank you!

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« Reply #41: March 06, 2010, 03:41:12 am »

Original D&D split into two branches because of Dave Arneson's lawsuit settlement with TSR over AD&D (which cut him out of the royalities). AD&D went off in one direction and D&D went in another. For D&D, first their were the two box set Basic/Expert edition (also called Moldvay/Cook after the authors/editors). This was followed by the five box set BECMI edition in the mid-1980 (Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortals by Frank Mentzer). In the early 1990s, Aaron Allston cleaned this up a bit to produce what is probably the best one book version of D&D ever: the Rules Cyclopedia. If you get one older edition, this is probably the book to get. Meanwhile, AD&D went on to 2nd Edition in 1987 or so and got very weird in the 1990s.

I shall be geeking with you here as my hubby and I actually have all versions of D&D and AD&D. It's all the add on books that get silly, for example the Wizards and Priests magical items encyclopedias (5 for Wizards and 4 for Priests-all items from books, source books and magazines, no matter how bizarre). If you want silly game systems, try either Macho Women With Guns or Renegade Nuns On Wheels (which is part 2). These have skills like running in high heels, which is an art in itself. You really need to look up the plot ideas for this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macho_Women_with_Guns

We have about 3 packing boxes is our attic full to bursting with various RPG systems-I really need to go through them again......
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« Reply #42: March 06, 2010, 08:09:08 am »

I shall be geeking with you here as my hubby and I actually have all versions of D&D and AD&D. It's all the add on books that get silly, for example the Wizards and Priests magical items encyclopedias (5 for Wizards and 4 for Priests-all items from books, source books and magazines, no matter how bizarre).

Yes, the number of add-on/splat books started to get silly with 2e. Although 3.x was much worse and 4e looks to be the worst yet. Someone did a pages/year produced chart that shows just how little one had to absorb rules-wise to play pre 2e versions versus 2e and later. The difference in output is amazing. Since I prefer rules lite to rules heavy, I pretty much lost interest in the later versions of D&D. Which is fine as the early versions still work just as well as they ever did -- and I don't have to spend a dime to continue playing what I already own. This may not be good of the role-playing industry, but the industry is trying to make money any way it can and that isn't al;ways good for the role-playing hobby.

Quote
If you want silly game systems, try either Macho Women With Guns or Renegade Nuns On Wheels (which is part 2). These have skills like running in high heels, which is an art in itself.

I bought all three parts as they came out. Never bothered with any of the newer editions/versions, however.
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« Reply #43: October 01, 2010, 02:59:29 am »

All the classes seem to work way to similar.  That's boring in many ways.

This is my single biggest objection to 4e.  Overly homogenous.  All of the classes get the same kind of abilities at exactly the same time.  Attack, Attack, "Utility," Attack, Attack . . .

I was particularly annoyed to see the way they handled the cleric.  I just can't buy the whole "Attack that hurts your enemies while healing your friends" thing.   The whole thing just reeks of desperate shoehorning.  They had to make all of the classes follow the same advancement progression, and since everyone else gets an attack at level x, so must clerics.  "But how do we get clerics to also be healers?"  "I know!  Let's give them healing attacks!"  Roll Eyes
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