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Author Topic: In case there weren't enough reason to support Obama...  (Read 15695 times)
LyricFox
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« Reply #45: August 17, 2008, 03:53:56 pm »

I dunno, I would've liked it as an option in the classes that had lots of sessions anyway.

I don't know if I would have taken it or not, but it would have at least given people that didn't want to spend class-time flirting a place to go away from the flirters - and the REST of the school would still be co-ed.

I mean, hell, my gym classes were single-sex - it's not like it's never done.

I don't have a problem with it in certain circumstances...gym being one, sex ed for younger grades being another. Otherwise it smacks to me of separate but equal and I can't envision me ever accepting that.

For me, what you're describing as the "flirters" isn't all that different from "bullies." That's a school/teacher control question that needs addressing at a level that's before dividing people up by sex or color or other artificial standard.
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« Reply #46: August 17, 2008, 04:59:22 pm »

Again, I should have read all of the posts, before posting myself.  I hadn't read yours before I posted.  Making it an option would be a good idea.  The only problem would be the funding needed.  You would have to have three classes for every one we have now.  Which would mean, more supplies, and more teachers.  It woud be a solution to a problem, but the expense could get attrocious(sp?).

In large school districts, such as Koi suggested, you would Not need any more teachers if you keep the class sizes the same.  You'll have some more transport issues, but not more teachers unless the gender ratio is way out of balence.  if you pull 12 boys out of one class, that's space for 12 girls.  The class you pulled the girls out of now has room for those 12 boys.
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« Reply #47: August 17, 2008, 05:05:55 pm »

In large school districts, such as Koi suggested, you would Not need any more teachers if you keep the class sizes the same.  You'll have some more transport issues, but not more teachers unless the gender ratio is way out of balence.  if you pull 12 boys out of one class, that's space for 12 girls.  The class you pulled the girls out of now has room for those 12 boys.

The problem with this is that it could potentially FORCE the segregation, rather than allowing it as an option.  If you want the segregated classrooms to be optional, rather than mandatory, you really do have to have more teachers across the board, because plenty of parents wouldn't like the thought of gender-segregated classrooms, so you have to keep the non-segregated classrooms available as an option.
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« Reply #48: August 17, 2008, 05:26:33 pm »

In large school districts, such as Koi suggested, you would Not need any more teachers if you keep the class sizes the same.  You'll have some more transport issues, but not more teachers unless the gender ratio is way out of balence.  if you pull 12 boys out of one class, that's space for 12 girls.  The class you pulled the girls out of now has room for those 12 boys.


Then you have the smaller districts, where this simply would not work because there is only one class for each grade/subject.  Then you have the districts where there are multiple elementary and middle schools, because of the high numbers of kids from surrounding areas who are included in the district.  In my area, we live intown, but there are several towns around who use our schools.  Something like this would simply be unfeasible without drastically raising taxes, to provide for buses, possibly new buildings, and more teachers (which we have only for those who are at least a mile away from their school for gradeschool, and more for the others).

The district my kids go to, each of the elementary schools is basically that way, with only a few of the grades in one or two of the six or seven having more than that.  At the middle school level they have two schools, at opposite ends of town, and these have maybe two or three classes per grade.  There is only one high school, and that has more classrooms per grade, but these are mostly devoted toward different subjects.)
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« Reply #49: August 17, 2008, 05:26:40 pm »

I don't have a problem with it in certain circumstances...gym being one, sex ed for younger grades being another. Otherwise it smacks to me of separate but equal and I can't envision me ever accepting that.

I have no problem with it where it is a choice: colleges and private schools for example.  I have a great deal of problem with it in tax-funded public schools because I know it will end up separate but unequal -- especially in parts of the country where women are still effectively considered second class citizens by many elected officials.

Also, you have a problem (and probably a lawsuit causing one) if a student of one sex is interested in a subject that is not offered in the school for his/her sex (because there is not enough interest in among that sex to make one class of it) but is offered in the school for the other sex (where there is a lot of interest).

With some careful controls, I would probably be willing to try this in something like magnet schools (where again, it would be student/parent choice).

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« Reply #50: August 17, 2008, 05:33:09 pm »

I have no problem with it where it is a choice: colleges and private schools for example.  I have a great deal of problem with it in tax-funded public schools because I know it will end up separate but unequal -- especially in parts of the country where women are still effectively considered second class citizens by many elected officials.

No. I don't have a problem with those two set-ups either. It's the tax-payer funded schools that I'm vehemently against. I dunno. Maybe it's because of where I'm from and that I'm only one generation removed from segregated water fountains, but I don't ever want to see the separate but equal make a comeback with my tax dollars.
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« Reply #51: August 17, 2008, 05:37:00 pm »

Maybe it's because of where I'm from and that I'm only one generation removed from segregated water fountains, but I don't ever want to see the separate but equal make a comeback with my tax dollars.

I suspect those of use from the South see how this could and would be abused to shortchange women in many places where those from other parts of the country see how it could help women as they don't have as many fundie (and sadly, bigot) dominated school boards to worry about.
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« Reply #52: August 17, 2008, 05:40:05 pm »

Maybe I'm just having a knee-jerk reaction here, but I absolutely, categorically loathe the idea of single sex education and think it's a very, very bad idea.

The world we live in isn't single sex, and I don't think setting up an artificial environment promoting that is a good idea.

Initially, my reaction was the same as yours.  Ideally, girls would be allowed to be more assertive and boys would be more restrained.  In reality, it doesn't seem to happen.  I've only come to some acceptance of the idea of gender segregated classrooms being beneficial after several years of looking at the research dealing with the co-ed landscape and seeing real advantages for the single sex environment.  I think that this sort of segregation would be more problematic based on race or ethnicity because even if a child is in single-sex education he or she has plenty of opportunities to interact with the other gender, whereas he or she might not be given such opportunities for children of varied ethnic backgrounds.

Again, I'm not diving in full force favor of gender segregation because I see potential problems arising.  I can just see definite benefits at this point.

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« Reply #53: August 17, 2008, 05:47:47 pm »

Initially, my reaction was the same as yours.  Ideally, girls would be allowed to be more assertive and boys would be more restrained.  In reality, it doesn't seem to happen.  I've only come to some acceptance of the idea of gender segregated classrooms being beneficial after several years of looking at the research dealing with the co-ed landscape and seeing real advantages for the single sex environment.  I think that this sort of segregation would be more problematic based on race or ethnicity because even if a child is in single-sex education he or she has plenty of opportunities to interact with the other gender, whereas he or she might not be given such opportunities for children of varied ethnic backgrounds.

Again, I'm not diving in full force favor of gender segregation because I see potential problems arising.  I can just see definite benefits at this point.

Sperran

I know we've talked about this before when I posted a link to a news article on it. I thought it was an atrocious idea then and I haven't changed my mind. Like I said, maybe it comes down to geography, but I can promise you that if you're in the south you've got a pretty good idea where this sort of thing will lead (and notice I didn't say "can lead", I said "will lead").
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« Reply #54: August 17, 2008, 05:59:47 pm »

The problem with this is that it could potentially FORCE the segregation, rather than allowing it as an option.  If you want the segregated classrooms to be optional, rather than mandatory, you really do have to have more teachers across the board, because plenty of parents wouldn't like the thought of gender-segregated classrooms, so you have to keep the non-segregated classrooms available as an option.

You have 3 classrooms, of 20 students each, all mixed gender.  You take 15 boys from class A and put them in class B, making B all boys.  You take 15 girls from class B and put them in A, making that all girls.  Class C is still mixed gender.  Still 3 classrooms of 20 students each.
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« Reply #55: August 17, 2008, 06:03:44 pm »

You have 3 classrooms, of 20 students each, all mixed gender.  You take 15 boys from class A and put them in class B, making B all boys.  You take 15 girls from class B and put them in A, making that all girls.  Class C is still mixed gender.  Still 3 classrooms of 20 students each.

Whaty happens if only 10 boys and 15 girls (or 15 boys and 10 girls) want to be in single sex classes?  Or what if only 10 people what to be in the mixed class?
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« Reply #56: August 17, 2008, 06:05:00 pm »

You have 3 classrooms, of 20 students each, all mixed gender.  You take 15 boys from class A and put them in class B, making B all boys.  You take 15 girls from class B and put them in A, making that all girls.  Class C is still mixed gender.  Still 3 classrooms of 20 students each.

Randall just said it, but I'll go ahead and chime it anyway, since he said it while I was typing Cheesy:  But what if only 10 girls from class B WANT to be gender-segregated?  Or what if only 7 boys from the entire lot want it?  It becomes inequitable the moment you have to force someone who doesn't want it to do it anyway.
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« Reply #57: August 17, 2008, 06:20:08 pm »

The only problem would be the funding needed.  You would have to have three classes for every one we have now.

Well, I think it's far more practical for a large district. if you're talking a school district like the Chicago Public Schools, with 600+ schools and 435,000+ students, and you've got magnet programs and charter schools and so forth, a pair of single-sex schools is just one more program, and presumably you've got enough students to fill one school by choice; you'd just be shifting students, not creating two whole new sets of classes.

In a district like the one I grew up in, with just two high schools, single-sex schooling would be quite a burden. (But then, many experts think it's at junior high age when it could be most helpful, and even my district had around a dozen junior highs ... you could probably create a small single-sex program out of that.)
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« Reply #58: August 17, 2008, 06:33:30 pm »

Whaty happens if only 10 boys and 15 girls (or 15 boys and 10 girls) want to be in single sex classes?  Or what if only 10 people what to be in the mixed class?

Like Koi said.  In a system of 400K students, you don't have a need for extra teachers in any significant amount.  You will have transportation issues since you have to move a bunch of kids over more distance.
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« Reply #59: August 17, 2008, 06:36:36 pm »


There tends to be a lot of interest in it in urban schools in the north where teen pregnancy rates and dropouts related to pregnancy are high. In those situations, the girls often don't have stable male role models or stable relationships with any men in their lives. Many of them have low self-esteem, and as a result they tend to navigate the co-ed situation very badly -- low self-esteem + no experience of positive male-female relationships + teenaged hormones = recipe for disaster. Success rates for girls in those situations who move to a single-sex school tend to shoot through the roof, even if they do get pregnant. Being in an all-female classroom environment puts them in a position where they feel stable, safe, and comfortable, among the kinds of interpersonal relationships they understand and can navigate comfortably. Similarly, boys in those kinds of situations are often more focused on schoolwork because there's far less pressure to impress girls and prove one's manhood.

In single-sex girls' schools, you also have teachers who are DEEPLY committed to women's education. You don't teach at a girls' school if you don't believe in the intellectual equality of women and their ability to achieve in non-traditional fields.  I think Jennett alluded to this further up the thread, but you get environments that are supportive and nurturing for women in non-traditional fields with teachers who expect and demand for the girls to perform in all areas.

I went to a co-ed college that had only been co-ed for 21 years when I arrived; there was an women's college across the street. And I did, on occasion, see subtle differences in how the faculty behaved; in the poli sci department there was a bit of an assumption that men would dominate, and women who achieved were certainly accepted, but always with a bit of surprise -- instead of "What a good student!" it was "What a good FEMALE student!" The poli sci department at the women's school, OTOH, expected and demanded top performance from female students. (And talked a lot about the importance of women in leadership.)

I would not have flourished in single-sex schooling during my elementary and high school years (maybe junior high, but junior high was so flippin' miserable probably only crawling into a hole for three years would have helped). But I know students who definitely did, and I know students who would have done a lot better in a single-sex environment. I did live in single-sex dorms when I went to college, and I was afraid this would be weird. Instead, I found it to be one of the most crucial aspects of my college career in helping me to mature and become an emotionally healthy, self-aware individual.

What occurred to me a couple years in, when my friends would say, "OMG, how can you stand living on a campus where you only have single-sex dorms!" was that they all joined frats and sororities ON PURPOSE to get into a single-sex living environment. Joining single-sex housing ON PURPOSE and creating a closed single-sex community is seen as totally normal; going into an environment where the housing is already single-sex is seen as creepy and atavistic.

Again, I'd never mandate it. But I do think the option should be available where size and resources make it practical.
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