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Author Topic: What is a Fluffy Bunny? an FAQ I found  (Read 12968 times)
rose
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« Reply #30: August 17, 2008, 05:59:08 pm »

Perhaps, but as Everfool notes, Pagans are people too. Also, I get tired of having Pagan religions seen by the world as whatever the loud fluff bunnies (or whatever one wishes to call the group) say. Fluff bunny is a rude label, but so are all the alternatives (white-lighter, idiot, ignorant, etc.). Undecided

right, but that goes back to what I posted before about arguing on that level making *everyone look bad. It's not worth the aggravation to me, yk? And engaging with people who are determinedly ignorant or fearful or whatever just gives them more attention from the world. I'm not advocating hushing anyone, necessarily, but I find a cold shoulder is a wonderful tool.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/

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« Reply #31: August 17, 2008, 08:14:44 pm »

yeah, but you know I think that's different. You aren't reacting to something you don't like, you are reacting to something you know is wrong, which to me is a lot different.

"Fluffy bunny" is a term used for the wilfully ignorant; this is not merely known to be wrong but choosing wrong loudly and obnoxiously in the face of actual information.
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« Reply #32: August 17, 2008, 10:32:31 pm »

Perhaps, but as Everfool notes, Pagans are people too. Also, I get tired of having Pagan religions seen by the world as whatever the loud fluff bunnies (or whatever one wishes to call the group) say. Fluff bunny is a rude label, but so are all the alternatives (white-lighter, idiot, ignorant, etc.). Undecided

Actually I don't see ignorant as a bad term in and of itself.  It is quite often used in a rude way, but it just means lacking in knowledge.  I will be the first to say that I am completely or partially ignorant of a great many things.  The point at which it becomes a bad thing is when one refuses to learn, this is when it becomes outright stupidity.
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« Reply #33: August 17, 2008, 11:02:41 pm »

right, but that goes back to what I posted before about arguing on that level making *everyone look bad. It's not worth the aggravation to me, yk? And engaging with people who are determinedly ignorant or fearful or whatever just gives them more attention from the world. I'm not advocating hushing anyone, necessarily, but I find a cold shoulder is a wonderful tool.

Then again, where is the point at which you stop trying to educate people?  I mean, there have been a few times when all a person needed was someone to have a bit more patience with them, and teach them.  I have been in forums and chatrooms where the cold shoulder was used right off the bat, or the person had more questions after having been answered once, and then it was used.  These people tend to turn away thinking we are a bunch of elitists, who don't give half a rat's rump about anyone but ourselves and our own "petty" lives.  The few who do try to help them are overwhelmed by the number that don't, and are often skipped over, because our voices are muted by the loud "harumph" of the rest.

I admit that there are some who are simply unreachable, but to me it is best to simply try to teach them, and have them walk away from it, than it is for me to be snooty and walk away from trying to teach them. 
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« Reply #34: August 18, 2008, 01:48:10 am »

I admit that there are some who are simply unreachable, but to me it is best to simply try to teach them, and have them walk away from it, than it is for me to be snooty and walk away from trying to teach them.

One thing I think worth keeping in mind: many people seem to think that it is the obligation of others to educate them.  It doesn't crop up just in pagan circles, either; the number of people who respond to people pointing out the gaps in their logic with, "Well, prove otherwise" is stunning.  The subtext appears to be, "If you aren't going to invest your time in educating me, just don't bother telling me I'm wrong."

And the thing is, for all that I do do education-type activism a lot, in my free time, I'm really disinclined to invest a whole lot in someone with that attitude.  "Here's directions to a 101, go read that" is about the limit of my willingness to stretch for someone who thinks that I owe them my time.

Not a dancing monkey, y'know?
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« Reply #35: August 18, 2008, 03:44:05 am »

So when someone says to me, "you aren't a witch b/c you_______", I *know that's wrong; it's not just my experience or how I feel.

I'm finding this immensely ironic in the context of this conversation. Smiley
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« Reply #36: August 18, 2008, 08:02:40 am »

I suppose you could say that the other person *knows they're right too, but then you have to define your terms better, and hopefully everyone has an enlightening dialog (that's what generally happens around here, anyway, as you know). To me, the key to using terms better is thinking about what they mean, not just to me, but to others as well. So when someone says something you've never heard before, (or maybe you've heard 7 zillion times and you are really sick of it) you have to think about it and decide how it applies to you and your situation. Is this person saying things that are straight up hateful? Factually inaccurate? Am I sure, or is it just that it rubs me the wrong way? It requires self-reflection and actual research and a willingness to have an honest discussion, and ime that's where a lot people fall down and just start using pejorative terms.

I'm going along with Rose here.  If we all started using derogatory terms and started calling each other "stupid idiots" , (among other things) right about now instead of having this open discussion, then the discussion would be over. 
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« Reply #37: August 18, 2008, 08:05:30 am »

Then again, where is the point at which you stop trying to educate people?  I mean, there have been a few times when all a person needed was someone to have a bit more patience with them, and teach them.

Such people aren't usually considered fluff bunnies -- at least not by the "willful ignorance" definition we usually use.  For example, someone who believes that 9 million witches were killed during the so-called "Burning Times" because they read it in a book is only a fluff bunny if he/she refuses to accept the fact that this is not so when others tell him and present reasonable evidence to show their view is correct. Note, however, that people are not obligated to do his research for him (pointing him to correct info is enough).
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« Reply #38: August 18, 2008, 08:06:31 am »

I'm going along with Rose here.  If we all started using derogatory terms and started calling each other "stupid idiots" , (among other things) right about now instead of having this open discussion, then the discussion would be over. 


Arguably we use the term 'fluff bunny' without using it in a debate - that is, we label texts as being fluffy, websites similarly, and so on.  When it involves a discussion on here, the rules ask that posters not attack each other.  Thus, were I to call you fluffy on this forum, that would be against the rules.  If I call Silver Ravenwolf fluffy, it isn't.  I'd argue that it's also a pretty fair use of the term in the latter case.
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« Reply #39: August 18, 2008, 08:23:01 am »

"Fluffy bunny" is a term used for the wilfully ignorant; this is not merely known to be wrong but choosing wrong loudly and obnoxiously in the face of actual information.

Exactly.  (The rest of this is not so much in response to you as using your post as a jumping-off point.)  And I refuse to feel bad for feeling like I, being willing to learn, am living my life in a better way than someone who sticks their fingers in their ears and sings, "Lalala I can't hear you!"  I don't generally see much point in actually saying to someone, "You are fluffy," if only because chances of their hearing it aren't good anyway.  (Also, see Everfool's point about using it here at TC toward other posters specifically.)  But I don't think that willful ignorance is a desirable quality, and I don't feel like I should have to act all approving of it to avoid bruising someone's feelings.

It's one thing if someone is merely new, has not had the opportunity to learn, or perhaps even doesn't have the capacity to learn.  That's not fluff, that's just not knowing any better and easily corrected by pointing toward the right resources.  It's another thing entirely if someone has had the opportunity, has the information available to them, and chooses to ignore it because they would much rather not know thankyouverymuch.  The former, I try to approach with as much patience as possible and at least remain neutral if not actively try to help them (time, energy and ability allowing).  The latter, I see little point in wasting my scarce resources on.  If they're determined not to hear it, it's not my responsibility to try to love-and-light-and-lollipop them into listening.
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rose
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« Reply #40: August 18, 2008, 10:14:12 am »

One thing I think worth keeping in mind: many people seem to think that it is the obligation of others to educate them.  It doesn't crop up just in pagan circles, either; the number of people who respond to people pointing out the gaps in their logic with, "Well, prove otherwise" is stunning.  The subtext appears to be, "If you aren't going to invest your time in educating me, just don't bother telling me I'm wrong."

And the thing is, for all that I do do education-type activism a lot, in my free time, I'm really disinclined to invest a whole lot in someone with that attitude.  "Here's directions to a 101, go read that" is about the limit of my willingness to stretch for someone who thinks that I owe them my time.

Not a dancing monkey, y'know?

This is a really important point, and a common problem, in all areas of life. We are so accustomed to being fed information; it's how most people are taught, in school. Critical thinking is a skill, and not everyone has it, or is interested in learning it. The hard thing for me about this is that I'm a teacher; I like explaining things I know, and I like learning new things, and I'm willing to take risks to facilitate that. So when I run into someone who seems to want to learn but *isn't willing to take risks, who doesn't want to take responsibility for their own learning, ie asking questions, or being willing to risk being wrong, it's very discouraging. I guess in defining nasty terms, like fluffy bunny, that's who I would say is one (but not out loud Wink). However, I prefer Randall's and EF's use of it as a label for texts or schools of thought, not people.
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  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
rose
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« Reply #41: August 18, 2008, 10:16:21 am »

I'm finding this immensely ironic in the context of this conversation. Smiley

heh...are you asking me to prove I'm a witch?  Wink
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #42: August 18, 2008, 11:19:12 am »

heh...are you asking me to prove I'm a witch?  Wink

Not really, and I really don't think you could provide proof that would convince me that you are - that's beside the point.  What I found ironic is that you claim to so firmly know something that proves someone else wrong.  When, with regards to knowing that you're a witch, I would suspect is based on subjective experiences, knowledge, etc.  So, why is your truth better than someone elses?

What I would suggest is more accurate is that you believe that you're a witch, and someone else may disagree.  The quality of support you provide for your respective arguments may vary.  It is likely the case that neither can objectively prove either of the claims.

With relation to fluffiness, I can say X is fluffy, for Y reasons, and you may disagree for Z reasons.  I might be making a crappy argument, you might be, we both might be, or maybe we're both making a good case.  Either way, it's subjective, the label isn't going away, and may well be useful for indicating what I'm trying to talk about.
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« Reply #43: August 18, 2008, 11:47:28 am »


What I would suggest is more accurate is that you believe that you're a witch, and someone else may disagree.  The quality of support you provide for your respective arguments may vary.  It is likely the case that neither can objectively prove either of the claims.

I don't know, I think probably one could definitely come up with some pretty solid facts about what/who is and is not a witch. What I was actually referring to earlier was what someone had asserted elsewhere; that I can't be a witch b/c I am not a certain type of witch; that when Wiccans say they are witches they are "erroneous". That is not very hard to refute, b/c (to my knowledge...somebody learn me up here, if I'm wrong...) there are not many hard and fast rules about calling yourself a witch and practicing Craft, just as there are not many hard and fast rules about calling yourself a Christian and doing whatever Christians do; the person was putting their opinion forward as fact, which is what we are saying here is one of the definitions of fluffy, although I am quite sure the person who made the assertion would be outraged by that notion Cheesy

Quote
With relation to fluffiness, I can say X is fluffy, for Y reasons, and you may disagree for Z reasons.  I might be making a crappy argument, you might be, we both might be, or maybe we're both making a good case.  Either way, it's subjective, the label isn't going away, and may well be useful for indicating what I'm trying to talk about.

agreed, this has been a useful discussion.
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Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #44: August 18, 2008, 11:50:54 am »

the person was putting their opinion forward as fact, which is what we are saying here is one of the definitions of fluffy, although I am quite sure the person who made the assertion would be outraged by that notion Cheesy

I find most people who could be accused of being fluffy get upset at this.  I'm strangely able to live with the suffering of others. Smiley
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