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Author Topic: evolution vs. creation  (Read 12031 times)
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« Topic Start: August 14, 2008, 12:02:33 am »

which one do you believe in?  i find this a tough question, because what if evolution was all part of god/godess's plan?  personally, that is what i think.
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« Reply #1: August 14, 2008, 07:26:12 am »

which one do you believe in?  i find this a tough question, because what if evolution was all part of god/godess's plan?  personally, that is what i think.

I'll just point you to my answer in this thread:
http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=6233.msg107508#msg107508

Basically, I don't think it's an either/or question.
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« Reply #2: August 14, 2008, 08:18:14 am »

which one do you believe in?  i find this a tough question, because what if evolution was all part of god/godess's plan?  personally, that is what i think.

I don't think it is a "question" at all. Evolution is a proven fact. The only people who worry about "evolution vs creation" are Biblical literalists who refuse to accept any fact that they see as not supported by their reading of the Bible. Why that's certainly their right, their unwillingness to accept evolution as a fact does not make evolution less factual any more that the a member of the Flat Earth Society's refusal to accept the fact that the Earth isn't flat calls into question the flat that the Earth is a spheroid.
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« Reply #3: August 14, 2008, 12:24:20 pm »

which one do you believe in?  i find this a tough question, because what if evolution was all part of god/godess's plan?  personally, that is what i think.

I honestly believe in evolution, and I think that unlike some religions, most (and I don't know all the Pagan religions so someone correct me if I'm wrong) give you to option to believe in either.  I'm a facts person - if I can see it I can believe it.  And while there are some exceptions to things in my own spirituality, I find that I can "see" more from my own religion than any other religion would offer me.  It's scientific fact, and when something is proven scientifically, how is it possible to refute it?  My mother is Christian, and I keep asking her how she can believe in creation when evolution is written in text books.
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« Reply #4: August 14, 2008, 01:27:24 pm »

I keep asking her how she can believe in creation when evolution is written in text books.

I believe in evolution, so I'm not disputing that part of your argument, but just because something is written in a textbook doesn't mean it is purely factual.  Rather than asking her why she doesn't believe in something that is written about in textbooks, I would ask her why she doesn't believe in something that is widely accepted by the most intelligent minds of our generation as indisputable.  Somewhat more convincing argument there. Wink
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« Reply #5: August 14, 2008, 01:45:00 pm »

I don't think it is a "question" at all. Evolution is a proven fact. The only people who worry about "evolution vs creation" are Biblical literalists who refuse to accept any fact that they see as not supported by their reading of the Bible. Why that's certainly their right, their unwillingness to accept evolution as a fact does not make evolution less factual any more that the a member of the Flat Earth Society's refusal to accept the fact that the Earth isn't flat calls into question the flat that the Earth is a spheroid.

Just a couple of thoughts (or so I like to call them  Wink) But first, a note: I am not a creationist personally, and have no stake in the creation/evoluation argument. I don't care all that much about how nature became the marvel it now is; it's enough to be thankful and awestruck. 

1. Anything we believe about origins, beginnings, whatever, is by necessity a matter of faith to at least some extent. The scientific method is to observe, repeat, test, and measure; none of that can possibly apply to origins in a pure or strict sense. Evolutionary science has had some painful episodes of embarrassment, so all the foibles and faults aren't on the biblical literalist side. (most of them, yes, but not quite all)

2. Biblical literalists are not quite the only ones who have a stake in creationism; there are Muslims and Jews who also contribute to the creationist cause, and there are some thought-provoking books out there, such as Michael Behe's 'Darwin's Black Box' (he's Catholic, not a biblical literalist), and 'Mere Creation' which is one of the collaborative efforts across the board, involving Muslims and Jews as well as Christians of all stamps. Behe's presentation of Irreducible Complexity, in particular, is quite a striking argument, and very intelligently formulated.

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« Reply #6: August 14, 2008, 01:55:01 pm »

I believe in evolution, so I'm not disputing that part of your argument, but just because something is written in a textbook doesn't mean it is purely factual.  Rather than asking her why she doesn't believe in something that is written about in textbooks, I would ask her why she doesn't believe in something that is widely accepted by the most intelligent minds of our generation as indisputable.  Somewhat more convincing argument there. Wink

Haha, yea I get what you're saying, when speaking to her I've used more than just textbooks as an example though.  That was just to shorten it down to post. 

I took several anthropology classes in college, and learned quit a bit of evolution  of not just humans but further back as well, and have seen pictures and actual bones/fossels of neanderthals and further back than that, and the differences between those and that of humans now.  After seeing the differences in the shapes and sizes of bones, the age of the bones and so on, I, for the life of me don't see how people can refute that, but that's just my belief.  Its intriguing how the shape of our skulls changed, the size of our arm and leg bones, and even our tail bones.  It is easy to see the proof of evolution in that way.
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« Reply #7: August 14, 2008, 01:58:20 pm »

1. Anything we believe about origins, beginnings, whatever, is by necessity a matter of faith to at least some extent.

I completely agree with that. Unfortunately there's no way for us to know for sure how everything began.

Yes I believe evolution is a fact, however could some form of "higher power" have initiated evolution or perhaps created the resources for evolution to happen?  I believe it is a possibility. 
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« Reply #8: August 14, 2008, 02:02:37 pm »

Behe's presentation of Irreducible Complexity, in particular, is quite a striking argument, and very intelligently formulated.

But that argument has a major hole in it - mainly, the idea that these things spring whole.

We didn't start with eyes.  But the first critter that could tell ANYTHING about light had a huge advantage.  Etc.

You can't go "but where did eyes come from?" because they didn't show up full-formed.  It started with the tiniest bit of photosensitivity and went from there.
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« Reply #9: August 14, 2008, 05:09:49 pm »

Behe's presentation of Irreducible Complexity, in particular, is quite a striking argument, and very intelligently formulated.

It's close to a strawman argument as the theory of evolution does not say that eyes or ears or whatever suddenly appeared whole and functional. The argument would be very effective if it actually attacked what the theory of evolution says instead of what most opponents of the theory would like it to say. It's also basically a restatement of William Paley's Watchmaker argument.

For links to a number of articles refuting Behe's arguments see "Irreducible Complexity and Michael Behe: Do Biochemical Machines Show Intelligent Design?" in the talk.origins FAQ.
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« Reply #10: August 15, 2008, 12:50:39 pm »

It's close to a strawman argument as the theory of evolution does not say that eyes or ears or whatever suddenly appeared whole and functional. The argument would be very effective if it actually attacked what the theory of evolution says instead of what most opponents of the theory would like it to say. It's also basically a restatement of William Paley's Watchmaker argument.

Not to mention an Argument from Ignorance. "Nobody has figured out how these things evolved, therefore they didn't evolve."
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« Reply #11: August 15, 2008, 10:19:26 pm »

I don't think it is a "question" at all. Evolution is a proven fact. The only people who worry about "evolution vs creation" are Biblical literalists who refuse to accept any fact that they see as not supported by their reading of the Bible. Why that's certainly their right, their unwillingness to accept evolution as a fact does not make evolution less factual any more that the a member of the Flat Earth Society's refusal to accept the fact that the Earth isn't flat calls into question the flat that the Earth is a spheroid.

I think the thing that bothers some people is the idea that if things do evolve, then why don't we still see them evolving? Maybe this has to do with the interpretation of "evolution" and the notion that if things crawled out of the sea and evolved into something else why isn't that still happening? Why did it only happen at one point in time?

We do see actual evidence in the survival of the fittest and interbreeding. We see extinction and life forms on the verge of extinction. Evolution of course takes thousands of years, so you can't watch it happening right before your eyes like some sort of CGI morphing trick or like those old classroom charts of Homo-erectus.

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« Reply #12: August 15, 2008, 10:27:33 pm »

I think the thing that bothers some people is the idea that if things do evolve, then why don't we still see them evolving? Maybe this has to do with the interpretation of "evolution" and the notion that if things crawled out of the sea and evolved into something else why isn't that still happening? Why did it only happen at one point in time?

We do see actual evidence in the survival of the fittest and interbreeding. We see extinction and life forms on the verge of extinction. Evolution of course takes thousands of years, so you can't watch it happening right before your eyes like some sort of CGI morphing trick or like those old classroom charts of Homo-erectus.



Um, the flu virus evolves every season.  That's why we have to continually make new vaccines. 
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« Reply #13: August 15, 2008, 10:33:30 pm »

I think the thing that bothers some people is the idea that if things do evolve, then why don't we still see them evolving?

Err, they do keep on evolving. It just takes many generations to notice. Humans generally only live long enough see many generations in micro-organisms. However, we certainly observe evolution there. Unfortunately, in many cases.
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« Reply #14: August 15, 2008, 10:47:55 pm »

Err, they do keep on evolving. It just takes many generations to notice. Humans generally only live long enough see many generations in micro-organisms. However, we certainly observe evolution there. Unfortunately, in many cases.

Yes, exactly, I worded it badly, but that was what I was trying to say to the argument against it.

It is usually stated that viruses mutate not evolve, so often people don't consider the transformation as a form of evolution evolution.
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