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Author Topic: Planes of existence  (Read 10477 times)
EverFool
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« Reply #15: August 18, 2008, 07:34:37 pm »

I'd also like to see Everfool argue against it.   Wink

Don't count on it.  I've tried arguing explanations like this before, and after some frustration and effort on my part, I've tended to get a response along the lines of 'well, this is my opinion/belief.'

If it's all the same, I probably won't bother (barring change in mood, etc).
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« Reply #16: August 18, 2008, 07:57:22 pm »

Yes. I would say that Astral travel is a coming together of the subconscious and the conscious mind. When they combine, the subconscious can help us in this existence, we are more aware, we are more intuitive, we can even be more understanding. The same can happen in the opposite direction. On other planes the conscious mind of this existence is part of the subconscious. (I hope I haven't lost you there)

No, I think I see what you mean. If one plane deals with what you know to be your subconscious, then what you know to be your conscious mind is subconscious on that plane. Is that right?  Cheesy
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« Reply #17: August 19, 2008, 01:02:26 am »

Don't count on it.  I've tried arguing explanations like this before, and after some frustration and effort on my part, I've tended to get a response along the lines of 'well, this is my opinion/belief.'

If it's all the same, I probably won't bother (barring change in mood, etc).

Blast it.  I like seeing your take on these kinds of things.  It's refreshing.  (And NO, I'm not being sarcastic this time.)
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EverFool
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« Reply #18: August 19, 2008, 04:43:15 am »

Blast it.  I like seeing your take on these kinds of things.  It's refreshing.  (And NO, I'm not being sarcastic this time.)

I'll see how I feel later. I'm still having trouble mustering the 'give a damn' to tackle stuff earlier in the thread. Smiley
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« Reply #19: August 19, 2008, 02:40:08 pm »

What about plants?  They are alive but don't have brains or synapses.  Do they still produce energy?
 

I believe so. I personally believe that, they carry certain energies specific to species, which is the reasons some have metaphysical use, when there's no chemical/physical reason for us to respond to them. (Just to note, I don't think much of magic...)

Where are you getting the 10% from?  (I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious.  Haven't seen that factoid before.)


My basic biology lessons. On the food chain say a herbivore eats the grass, only 10% of the grass gets passed along as energy for the herbivore. If a carnivore eats the herbivore, only 10% of the herbivore's energy is passed along as energy for the carnivore.

They also measure electro-magnetic differences.  And sometimes they do find 'hot spots' in temperature.  It's got to be a lot of work to keep all that energy together though.  On it's own, heat energy will disperse.  So where is the ghost getting new energy to sustain itself?  They aren't eating food....hmm...this requires deeper thought on my part. 

See, you learn something new everyday. I didn't know that. As far as the energy source, I have no earthly idea. I'm an education mahor, so I've reached the end of my knowledge of basic science and physics.


I like your explanation.  I'd also like to see Everfool argue against it.   Wink

Feel free Everfool, I'm sorry if I'm one of those people who are stubborn. But this is what I believe, so if yoou find any serious holes tell me. I already think I'm a little crazy, so I wouldn't be suprised if you do too.

But I won't reply today, I'm having a *blegh* day and I'm tired, hormonal, and moody, so I don't think I could be as objective as need be for this discussion.
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« Reply #20: August 19, 2008, 04:14:09 pm »

No, I think I see what you mean. If one plane deals with what you know to be your subconscious, then what you know to be your conscious mind is subconscious on that plane. Is that right?  Cheesy

Yes, exactly.  Smiley
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« Reply #21: August 19, 2008, 04:35:35 pm »

Crazy Button On:

Duly noted.


Quote
The way I see it, everything living thing in the universe has an energetic body, which is a requirement for life as I have come to know it.

In which case, I won't comment on this particularly, as you note that it is an opinion.  Of course, I see no reason to share your opinion, or think it accurate.

Quote
It can be seen in humans as the little electrical synapses in our brains, traveling through us and telling the rest of our body what to do.

I guess I have to tackle it at this stage.  Synapses do not an energetic body make.  You're going from 'electrical energy' to a whole set of ideas that aren't justified by what is known.  If you want to say you believe in the astral, be my guest, but I'd suggest dropping the pseudo-science.


Quote
So when we die, where does all of that energy go? Only 10% is passed on as consumable energy to anything else, and it’s a basic rule of physics that energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

I think there'll come a day when I *cry* whenever I see this trotted out - the energy being neither created nor destroyed part.  If I pulp up a wardrobe, I'll have wooden splinters, but I won't have a wardrobe.  When a human life ends, you have a non-functioning body, which will deteriorate further over time until there is nothing left.  Life is sustained by the body.  When the body conks out in a variety of ways, you become dead.  As for your mind, that isa function of your brain.  It is clear that when stuff is done to the brain, stuff happens to the mind.  Like that guy who took a large pole through the head and lost his morality.  Or the people who suffer adversely from drugs and become psychotic due to the effect of chemicals on their brains.  This suggests to me that the mind depends on the brain, and would suggest that without a functioning brain, there is no mind.  Once the body fails, the brain soon follows.

Quote
Scientists say it escapes as heat energy, that makes sense. But when they go looking for ghosts, what do they measure?

Here you make an assumption that people hunting for ghosts are *correct* in that ghosts exist.  Furthermore, you go on in your next bit to assume that the temperature is the root element, rather than a symptom.

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Variations in tempatures (…Albeit that’s usually a change in tempature for the cooler, but I’m human, not the Universe Encyclopedia…)

Fear not, I have not been confused in this regard.


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so let’s assume this energy escaping our body is still a conscious entity, i.e. us,

Hell of an assumption there.  I mean, hell, there's no evidence to support this, and all evidence so far suggests that without a brain, we don't have a mind.  I'd love to see how you think *temperature* will power a mind.  It lacks everything associated with cognition.  Synapses, chemicals, A BRAIN.
It seems about on the same level as assuming that a pink unicorn made the world.  You can assume what you like, but without even a trace bit of backing for your reasoning, beyond assumptions, they're about on the same level.


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and that the body itself is merely a tool for creation of physical goods. (…That’s a completely different topic…)

Because the Gods are real, and also capitalists?

Quote
Since we are able to leave our body as this energetic entity when the physical body has reached it’s sell by date,

again, an assumption.  Your argument only follows if we do survive as thinking patches of heat.  Again, given what we know about the mind, biology, and so forth, this seems...well, I was going to say 'unlikely', but that insults the probabilities, I feel.

Quote
it seems reasonable to assume that it may be possible to do this prior to death as well. Hence, ASTRAL TRAVEL…

Umm..even WERE your scenario involving surviving as heat were *true*, that would by no means imply that you could wander around as heat at will, and return.  Incidentally, if you think of that as some kind of animating spark, methinks you'd be coming back to a dead body.  And now you have me talking as if your assumptions were likely or reasonable. Smiley


Quote
The astral plane itself is harder to understand, I think of it as a room with a million doors. You start in the same place, but there are a million different places you can go all separate and individual from each other.

Presumably a room with no radiators, what with all the heat wandering around.

Quote
I think this is the afore mentioned energetic body I’ve spoken of, and I think there are variations in color.

Wait, you can go places, so this is the body?  The astral plane *is* the body?  I'm not even following that once I discard the pseudo-science.  I also fail to see the relevance of the colour.

Quote
As a means to differentiate between energies, I believe there are variations in intensity. (… I would be a lightbulb, a God/Goddess might be the sun…) But when you look at light, which is what you’d be viewing the energy as, it occurs in various colors, due to intensity. (…I think… Any scientists in the forum?..)

You're worried about good science now?

Quote
I believe this is what causes colors in the energetic body to be unique to a certain being.

Ah...so do you think the intensity variations were put there to create a distinction, or do you see them as having occurred naturally?  Either way, how would you differentiate between people?  Surely they'd look about the same, if it's a variation based on power?

Quote
•Correct my if my physics are wrong, which I think they may be…

And that's the only bit you were worried about? Smiley
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« Reply #22: August 19, 2008, 09:04:20 pm »

I think there'll come a day when I *cry* whenever I see this trotted out - the energy being neither created nor destroyed part.  If I pulp up a wardrobe, I'll have wooden splinters, but I won't have a wardrobe.  When a human life ends, you have a non-functioning body, which will deteriorate further over time until there is nothing left.  Life is sustained by the body.  When the body conks out in a variety of ways, you become dead.  As for your mind, that isa function of your brain.  It is clear that when stuff is done to the brain, stuff happens to the mind.  Like that guy who took a large pole through the head and lost his morality.  Or the people who suffer adversely from drugs and become psychotic due to the effect of chemicals on their brains.  This suggests to me that the mind depends on the brain, and would suggest that without a functioning brain, there is no mind.  Once the body fails, the brain soon follows.

I enjoy reading your take on things, especially this here about the complete mortality of the human body as a whole.

I've once heard it said from those who believe that the 'soul' lives on, even after the body dies, that feelings or emotions are part of the soul, as opposed to created in the brain (thus saying that if the brain dies, something is still left of you). They argued that emotions such as love, joy, fear, etc originate from a person's soul, and not from the brain. Would you answer them, and if so, how?

(The discussion occured with a group of people from my religious studies class a few years ago).
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« Reply #23: August 19, 2008, 09:39:33 pm »

I've once heard it said from those who believe that the 'soul' lives on, even after the body dies, that feelings or emotions are part of the soul, as opposed to created in the brain (thus saying that if the brain dies, something is still left of you). They argued that emotions such as love, joy, fear, etc originate from a person's soul, and not from the brain. Would you answer them, and if so, how?

They really ought to take a neurobiology class. 

Feelings and emotions most certainly are caused by the brain.  Drugs, alcohol, caffeine can make a person feel certain emotions by introducing chemicals into the bloodstream.  When the right chemicals are received by brain neurons, a certain emotion results.  Think depression drugs.

Naturally occuring chemicals in our bodies create emotions without drugs.
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« Reply #24: August 19, 2008, 09:58:46 pm »

They really ought to take a neurobiology class. 

Feelings and emotions most certainly are caused by the brain.  Drugs, alcohol, caffeine can make a person feel certain emotions by introducing chemicals into the bloodstream.  When the right chemicals are received by brain neurons, a certain emotion results.  Think depression drugs.

Naturally occuring chemicals in our bodies create emotions without drugs.

I wish I had of been smart enough to have thought of the example of drugs at the time. Unfortunately my intelligence on the matter of human biology went as far as me saying 'of course emotions are caused by the brain!'  and then went no further.
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« Reply #25: August 20, 2008, 05:09:27 am »



Fierflye got this one for me.  Further, souls really don't add any 'explanatory power' - that is, souls are not required to explain emotions.  If people want to believe in souls, or the astral, or whatever, that's their business.  Until they get some convincing and *positive* evidence, they should put the science down on the floor, and back away slowly. Smiley
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« Reply #26: August 20, 2008, 07:33:37 am »

When a human life ends, you have a non-functioning body, which will deteriorate further over time until there is nothing left.  Life is sustained by the body.  When the body conks out in a variety of ways, you become dead.  As for your mind, that isa function of your brain.  It is clear that when stuff is done to the brain, stuff happens to the mind.  Like that guy who took a large pole through the head and lost his morality.  Or the people who suffer adversely from drugs and become psychotic due to the effect of chemicals on their brains.  This suggests to me that the mind depends on the brain, and would suggest that without a functioning brain, there is no mind.  Once the body fails, the brain soon follows.

I am not sure the mind is a  function of the brain so much as the brain is a conduit for the mind. One cannot exist without the other as far as the whole functioning human is concerned. Dead body equals dead brain, yes, but dead mind? Maybe only in the sense that it is no longer connected to the body. Can I prove this in a science lab? No. But I don't like to limit my understanding of the universe to science lab approved trains of thought anyway.   
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« Reply #27: August 20, 2008, 09:39:25 am »

I am not sure the mind is a  function of the brain so much as the brain is a conduit for the mind. One cannot exist without the other as far as the whole functioning human is concerned. Dead body equals dead brain, yes, but dead mind? Maybe only in the sense that it is no longer connected to the body. Can I prove this in a science lab? No. But I don't like to limit my understanding of the universe to science lab approved trains of thought anyway.   

Ah yes.  I forgot that reasonably extrapolating from the observed was so...limiting. Smiley
If the brain is damaged - the mind doesn't operate the way it's meant to.  If the brain wasn't so vital to the mind, that damage would be less relevant.

I see nothing to suggest that the mind is seperate from the physical.  I see no mind/body split.
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« Reply #28: August 20, 2008, 09:45:38 am »

No. But I don't like to limit my understanding of the universe to science lab approved trains of thought anyway.   

Also, while the topic of 'limiting' understanding...  If you reject what evidence you can find through study of science, the world, and the mind, in favour of...whatever it is you'd rather believe, that is *still* a limitation.  I will be happy to add the existence of souls, for example, to the view of the universe once there is even the beginnings of evidence to suggest it.

So again I say - bringing a scientific/ analytical approach to bear on life is no more limiting than other...methods.
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« Reply #29: August 20, 2008, 01:00:38 pm »

...  If you reject what evidence you can find through study of science, the world, and the mind, in favour of...whatever it is you'd rather believe, that is *still* a limitation.  I will be happy to add the existence of souls, for example, to the view of the universe once there is even the beginnings of evidence to suggest it.
So again I say - bringing a scientific/ analytical approach to bear on life is no more limiting than other...methods.

I didn't say I rejected scientific thought/theories.  But lack of scientific evidence doesn't mean some things don't or didn't exist.  Really, in any field of science you are always waiting for new pieces of evidence or understanding to come up, sometimes they are things that totally change the way the world, the body, nature, etc. are viewed.  Micro-organisms for example, existed before their existence was proven. The mind is limited only if it isn't open.

Although I don't live with a world view solely based on what has been scientifically proven, this doesn't mean I am living in a fantasy world of my own creation, only insomuch as everyone lives in their own reality due to personal perspective and experiences.   
   
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