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Author Topic: Planes of existence  (Read 13474 times)
RandallS
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« Reply #30: August 20, 2008, 03:33:33 pm »

I didn't say I rejected scientific thought/theories.  But lack of scientific evidence doesn't mean some things don't or didn't exist. 

No, it does not mean they do not exist, however, if they have been looked for and no evidence found then most people would say they are less likely to exist. Part of the problem in this discussion is that someone tried to show a "scientific basis" for their beliefs and the science was simply inaccurate. This brought science into the discussion in a much larger way than it normally would have in a discussion like this.
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« Reply #31: August 20, 2008, 04:34:55 pm »

Part of the problem in this discussion is that someone tried to show a "scientific basis" for their beliefs and the science was simply inaccurate. This brought science into the discussion in a much larger way than it normally would have in a discussion like this.

Yes, indeed.
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« Reply #32: August 23, 2008, 06:03:03 pm »

The way I see it, everything living thing in the universe has an energetic body, which is a requirement for life as I have come to know it.

You may be interested in Autopoiesis and Cognition by Humberto R. Maturana, Francisco J. Google Books has an excerpt at: Varelahttp://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=nVmcN9Ja68kC&oi=fnd&pg=PT9&dq=autopoiesis&ots=_lp62SHf3f&sig=y70NPmA4RDZBZS92NcO8kyzRMBs

It strikes me as a contender in the field of putting a stronger theoretical foundation under your UPG. Essentially, they argue that life has three components: a particular type of pattern, the manifestation of that pattern within a flow of matter and energy and the ongoing process of that manifestation (unfortunately they used the term 'cognition' for the process element, which has meant the base theory is often a bit tangential in the related literature).

Their model allows for the existence of 'life' at greater physical scales provided it meats the definition otherwise. This could mean that a person physically and integrally participates in more unitary lifeforms than simply the one homo sapien body they wake up in each day. If these lifeforms experience a consciousness, which the base theory seems to me to imply, I have often wondered if what I experience as 'I' is always that body, might it not be one of the other living systems with which I am integral?
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« Reply #33: January 27, 2009, 10:40:05 pm »

No, it does not mean they do not exist, however, if they have been looked for and no evidence found then most people would say they are less likely to exist.
This is a fallacy.  They either exist or they don't.  Likelihood isn't a factor in the least. 

Ah yes.  I forgot that reasonably extrapolating from the observed was so...limiting. Smiley
If the brain is damaged - the mind doesn't operate the way it's meant to.  If the brain wasn't so vital to the mind, that damage would be less relevant.

I see nothing to suggest that the mind is seperate from the physical.  I see no mind/body split.
In Nile_Lily's defense on this particular point, if the brain was a conduit for the mind as she suggested, then damage to the brain WOULD still be relevant, because it would affect the interaction between the body and mind.  If the brain is the way the mind communicates, then if the brain is incapable of communicating the way it's supposed to, then the message can't get through.  Like if two people don't speak the same language, so they use an interpreter, but that interpreter loses his voice.  Suddenly, the two can't talk to each other.


The thoughts and theories I've come up with in the past about other planes of existence and the astral, albeit lacking evidence (as these theories are wont to do) seem to me to at least fit together cohesively.

*First of all, it assumes a pantheistic take of divinity, wherein the divine, which I call Spirit, is also in a sense, the essence of life itself.  The "unit" of Spirit, to talk all scientifical, would be the Soul (Essentially what animates us and keeps our bodily functions working.  Also, I understand that it's an unverified assumption)
*Secondly, it also assumes an alternate parallel plane of existence to our own (unverified) which may or may not be the Astral.  This plane has no space or time.  (I've considered there being a third plane for transcendant souls--See next point--but so far it mostly seems to just cause more problems.  All it really does is give reincarnation a purpose, though I myself don't see why a purpose is necessary)
*Spirit "resides" on this Plane.  The Soul is thus everywhere and nowhere throughout all time, in terms of the world/universe, though it only experiences the world through the physical body it is tied to.  When the body dies, the soul moves on to a new body, with the moment of death of one body and the moment of conception of the new body occurring simultaneously.  Because the soul can be everywhere in terms of the world, it does not take time to travel from the place of one body to the place of the next, because from the reference point of the soul, they are effectively in the same place.  (Reincarnation may not be directly related to the issue, but in my theories, I think it is an inextricable part of how the body and soul interact, which is important)
*I like to think of the interaction of the body and soul as being sort of like two sheets of cloth that are interwoven throughout.  They are each their own sheet, but they can't be pulled apart from each other.

So, in light of all that, let's look at the idea of Astral Travel

The Astral Body that is said to traverse the Astral Plane while the body remains behind is often said to be attached to the body by a silver cord.  Now, IF the plane of existence where Spirit/the soul "resides" IS the Astral Plane, and the body and soul are two interwoven sheets, then Astral Travel would work when the soul pulls MOSTLY away, but is attached to the body by the silver thread.  The only problem with my brilliant logic is that the whole "interwoven sheets" thing is purely metaphor . . .

So, yeah.  Up to the point where you ACTUALLY start Astral Travelling, it seems to work.  The Interwoven Sheets thing wouldn't hold water scientifically.  I mean, there could be another explanation of the silver cord that would still allow for Astral Travel.  And of course, I may be dead wrong. 
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« Reply #34: March 22, 2011, 09:08:09 pm »

Scientists say it escapes as heat energy, that makes sense. But when they go looking for ghosts, what do they measure? Variations in tempatures (…Albeit that’s usually a change in tempature for the cooler, but I’m human, not the Universe Encyclopedia…) so let’s assume this energy escaping our body is still a conscious entity, i.e. us, and that the body itself is merely a tool for creation of physical goods. (…That’s a completely different topic…)

Since we are able to leave our body as this energetic entity when the physical body has reached it’s sell by date, it seems reasonable to assume that it may be possible to do this prior to death as well. Hence, ASTRAL TRAVEL…


•Correct my if my physics are wrong, which I think they may be…

  I like the style of your thought, it's... anyway I have something to say about your content.  The electrical energy and energy as heat and temperate energy, and so forth, is very fascinating speculation but it is energy within the physical spectrum, and this would not mean an astral plane or astral energy of any kind.  Does that make sense?
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« Reply #35: March 22, 2011, 09:31:28 pm »

Sometimes forms of meditation focus upon reaching a different plane of existence that transcends the physical one that your body is present in. Often this plane is called the astral plane. But what exactly is the astral plane? Can it even be described?

Is the astral plane the only other plane of existence other than the physical one? Or are there more?

I've often come across references to subtle body, but what exactly is this? And can it really be seen as an aura?

I'd be interested in hearing responses to these questions, as this is a topic that really interests me.



  I'll offer some Buddhistic content for you, Juniper, as well as some metaphysics.
  One way to consider the astral plane is as the dimensions in which a psychic body is projected and may operate within.  This would mean a psychic rendition of the physical world, as we know it.  This is commonly called astral projection or consciousness transference--I don't approve the term soul-traveling.
  However you also mentioned meditation, which invites this alternative consideration.  Consider that there are indeed other existential planes beside our own.  The animal plane, Tiracchana, is a physical plane like our own, inhabited by beings of gross material composition.  Add to this concept other material planes where ghost-like beings, demon or demigod-like beings, and intensely suffering creatures exist--outside our normal range of perception, but existential nonetheless.
  Beside our two gross-material planes and various other material planes, consider fine-material planes, where the energy composing this "subtle body" you mentioned exists.  These fine-material or "subtle" bodies are more like mind-bodies than physical bodies.  These beings are said to be able to instantly travel to other locations and, being beyond the spectrum of photonic light, radiate their own light.  Furthermore, consider that there are 16 of these distinct "astral" planes.
  According to Hindu tradition and the Buddha, it is possible to travel to these planes through meditative attainment, and possible to communicate with their inhabitants.  Relating this to the previous concept of the "astral plane", if you were to transfer your consciousness to this psychic or mental body and thus perceive a mental rendition of the physical world that we know, then those fine-material beings could easily project lesser forms down for you to see, to interact with you in whatever manner they desire.
  Beyond those planes are said to exist a further cosmos; four immaterial, non-physical planes, where there exists only the mind.  Furthermore the inhabitants of these planes are composed only of mind, experiencing very subtle, basic mental processes.  They are said to have a lifespan in approximate earth-years as 400 trillion to 1.68 quadrillion years.  These extreme states of existence are difficult to comprehend without background knowledge.
  But, how does this relate to your questions of the "astral plane"?  I know it was a jumble of information.
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