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Author Topic: What have your religious/spiritual beliefs given you?  (Read 10004 times)
Juniper
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« Reply #15: August 25, 2008, 09:02:27 pm »

Nothing. Spirituality does not come being trained to believe in symbols nor can anyone or any doctrine tell you what spirituality really is..if in fact it even exists.

I never believed in deities, miracles or really even magic. The doctrines I sifted through did nothing to help me feel like I mattered in this life or that I even had a place in this world. In fact I feel worse than I ever did before and I feel I have been duped by all the books I read claiming to have some morsel of truth. I am disillusioned,dissappointed and I had to re-learn that this so-called spirituality cannot ever come from any book,doctrine or self procalimed "master" or guru.

My own spirituality has come from no book, doctrine or self proclaimed 'master' or guru: it's just come from me.
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SunflowerP
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« Reply #16: August 25, 2008, 09:37:45 pm »

I am endeavoring to eliminate the word "belief" from my personal vocabulary.
Sorry..can't give you anything overly interesting.
Oh, I don't know.  I found it very interesting.

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« Reply #17: August 26, 2008, 05:15:39 am »

No benefit, no justifications. Nothing.


I'm getting the sense that your outlook has changed quite recently, and quite dramatically at that.  To me it sounds as if you are, perhaps, bitter about it.  Perhaps you would benefit from reflecting upon your new outlook, and weighing up what positive aspects there are to it.
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wisdomsbane
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« Reply #18: August 26, 2008, 06:12:22 am »

No benefit, no justifications. Nothing.

I really have no beliefs anymore. I either think or I don't think. I am endeavoring to eliminate the word "belief" from my personal vocabulary.
Sorry..can't give you anything overly interesting.

You think.  That's a start.  So is everything you think based on absolute, concrete provable facts?  If not, then you hold some opinions, a.k.a. beliefs.  And now, back to the original questions what do these currently held beliefs give you?
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Jorgath
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« Reply #19: August 26, 2008, 05:40:30 pm »

No benefit, no justifications. Nothing.

I really have no beliefs anymore. I either think or I don't think. I am endeavoring to eliminate the word "belief" from my personal vocabulary.
Sorry..can't give you anything overly interesting.

Prove to me the existence of any one thing.  Not the existence of existence, that's easy.  Prove to me that a given part of existence is real.

You probably can't to my satisfaction.  Therefore, at least in my view, you are acting on at least one assumption, and assumptions require beliefs.
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Odjn
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« Reply #20: August 26, 2008, 06:12:32 pm »

Prove to me that a given part of existence is real.

Hmm..try dropping a wrench on your foot..fall off a flatbed trailer and break your arm (I did..) or slam into a tree while sledding (it hurts too).

You probably can't to my satisfaction. 

Obviously not.

And now, back to the original questions what do these currently held beliefs give you?

Why should it "give" me anything? Whether I think dragons are real or lime jello is an aberration doesn't really add to diddly. As long as I live within the confines of society and its dictates everything else seems pointless..for me that is.

I'm getting the sense that your outlook has changed quite recently, and quite dramatically at that.

Yes, it has.

To me it sounds as if you are, perhaps, bitter about it.

Yes, I am.

Perhaps you would benefit from reflecting upon your new outlook, and weighing up what positive aspects there are to it.

Oh I have reflected alright. The only "positive" aspect I obtained is that I am even more skeptical then I was before.

Therefore, at least in my view, you are acting on at least one assumption, and assumptions require beliefs.

I do not see it as such. Assuming is part of observation, no matter how wrong that said observation may be. As such that proverbail observation has nothing to do with what I would otherwise think or not think about something.

Thanks
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« Reply #21: August 26, 2008, 11:45:07 pm »

Hmm..try dropping a wrench on your foot..fall off a flatbed trailer and break your arm (I did..) or slam into a tree while sledding (it hurts too).

Well yes, subjectively, that seems fairly real.  But it could also be a self-reinforcing delusion.  I choose to behave as if the experience were real, believe that it is real, but I certainly couldn't prove it 100 percent.

Quote
I do not see it as such. Assuming is part of observation, no matter how wrong that said observation may be. As such that proverbail observation has nothing to do with what I would otherwise think or not think about something.

To assume:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/assume

1. to take for granted or without proof

Sounds like a belief to me.
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« Reply #22: August 27, 2008, 04:28:33 pm »

I choose to behave as if the experience were real,

But you would have to have prior knowledge of how you are supposed to respond before you can actively choose how to respond.

When I broke my arm at age seven, I didn't know how it was supposed to feel yet it hurt just the same. When I needed stitches in my head, once again I had no idea how it was supposed to make me feel yet it bled profusely and it hurt as did the process of getting the stitches. (The idiot surgeon never thought to ask me if it hurt becaue I'd cry every time the stupid needle went through my skin)

Naturally we can all actively moderate our responses to many things based on experience but I still cannot choose not to have a swollen ankle when it gets twisted.
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« Reply #23: August 27, 2008, 04:38:10 pm »

Well yes, subjectively, that seems fairly real.  But it could also be a self-reinforcing delusion.  I choose to behave as if the experience were real, believe that it is real, but I certainly couldn't prove it 100 percent.

Back to the old brain-in-a-box problem.

Or The Matrix if you'd rather something all pop-culturey.
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Jorgath
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« Reply #24: August 28, 2008, 03:54:26 pm »

Back to the old brain-in-a-box problem.

Or The Matrix if you'd rather something all pop-culturey.

Actually, I'm old-old school.  Go Descartes.

P.S.  I actually dislike most of Descartes, but reading him always gives me ideas to argue with.  Ditto with Nietszche.
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« Reply #25: August 28, 2008, 03:56:33 pm »

But you would have to have prior knowledge of how you are supposed to respond before you can actively choose how to respond.

When I broke my arm at age seven, I didn't know how it was supposed to feel yet it hurt just the same. When I needed stitches in my head, once again I had no idea how it was supposed to make me feel yet it bled profusely and it hurt as did the process of getting the stitches. (The idiot surgeon never thought to ask me if it hurt becaue I'd cry every time the stupid needle went through my skin)

Naturally we can all actively moderate our responses to many things based on experience but I still cannot choose not to have a swollen ankle when it gets twisted.

Can you not choose?  Or do you simply BELIEVE you can not choose?

P.S. Yes, I know I'm being annoying.  I apologize, but this discussion is rather fun for me.  I hope that it is for you too.
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« Reply #26: August 28, 2008, 05:17:45 pm »


P.S.  I actually dislike most of Descartes, but reading him always gives me ideas to argue with.  Ditto with Nietszche.

I actually found Nietszche to be one of the more readable philosophers.  Then again, we seemed to get some pretty crappy texts to read.  (I can happily rant about Roger-bloody-Scruton)
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« Reply #27: August 28, 2008, 06:16:50 pm »

No benefit, no justifications. Nothing.

I really have no beliefs anymore. I either think or I don't think. I am endeavoring to eliminate the word "belief" from my personal vocabulary.
Sorry..can't give you anything overly interesting.

Every thought you think, every experience you go through, is in some sense a belief or conclusion formed by the filtering systems of your very own human nervous system.  The best you can do is to try and choose the filter.  If you deny that these conclusions and beliefs are subjective you only engage in self delusion.  The dogmatisms of pure science are as limiting as the dogmatisms of pure mysticism. 
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« Reply #28: August 28, 2008, 06:22:02 pm »

This is a topic that gets touched upon a lot, and I would like to pose a question to you.  This question is for those of you who have found a religion and/or belief system that you feel fits you.

What do you have now, that you didn’t have before?

By this I mean, what has your religion/spiritual beliefs* given to you that you were lacking before you ‘found’ your religion/spirituality?*

* not to leave out those of you who are atheist; that is a belief also

You can be as broad or as precise as you like  Smiley

Techniques.  The progress I have made in my life, through paganism (loosely, I use the term loosely), are a result of the techniques I have learned, not the beliefs.  I'm slowly but surely learning to program my own nervous system.  That is what I could not, or thought I could not, do before. 
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Jorgath
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« Reply #29: August 28, 2008, 11:38:05 pm »

I actually found Nietszche to be one of the more readable philosophers.  Then again, we seemed to get some pretty crappy texts to read.  (I can happily rant about Roger-bloody-Scruton)

Exactly.  I love reading Nietszche.  I just disagree with a lot of his conclusions (I'll guesstimate 80-85% of the time) and so my enjoyment comes from arguing with him.  And yes, I am sorry to say that I'm one of those people who will argue with a book out loud.
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