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Author Topic: Special Topic: Why We're Touchy About Defining Paganism  (Read 53819 times)
RandallS
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« Reply #240: August 11, 2007, 10:13:26 pm »

I stand corrected!  It is, in fact, a PBS site.  The position statements on this site are all from Christian and Jewish scholars, which is okay.  But no Taoist scholars?  Seems a bit one-sided.  How much more weight the arguement would have if non-JCI folk made the same arguement?

I've never seen any academic Taoist scholars comment on the idea that Jesus was really some type of Taoist -- perhaps because the idea just doesn't seem to need comment from them. As you are claiming something like this, perhaps you could find some recognized Taoist scholars whose research supports your position and direct us to them?

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I really don't care how many Jews are on this board, or how many Doctorates in Divinity there are.  I was inviting evidence that Jesus was lock-step (in his teachings) with Judaism (at that point in history), and found only, "You are wrong, and if you don't like it, you may leave!"

You are making the claim, so it is yours to prove to us.  We have don't have to prove you wrong.

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I pointed out similiarities between Jesus' teachings and those of Taoism.
 

No one will argue that as there are some major similarities between the teachings of all major religions because we are all human have need of answers to the same general questions about reality. Heck, there are similarities between some of the teachings of Jesus and Traditional Wicca -- this does not provide evidence that Jesus was not talking to Jews about Judaism (and was instead really teaching Wicca).
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« Reply #241: August 12, 2007, 12:19:41 am »

Please, drop the veiled threats and the "my scholars are better than your scholars" routine?

A.) Randall isn't threatening you.  He's stating the obvious--if you think you can make wild, unsubstantiated claims without comment here, you're mistaken.  And if you can't deal with that, you might be happier on a board that doesn't have such an academic bent.  B.)  His scholars are better than yours, if only by virtue of the fact that you've yet to produce any scholars to back up your claims.

Unless I'm completely mistaken (and I don't think I am), I remember you from elsewhere, Pretz.  As a mod, you didn't have nearly the patience that Randall does.  I'd thank my lucky stars, were I you...

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« Reply #242: August 12, 2007, 06:01:34 pm »

You are making the claim, so it is yours to prove to us.  We have don't have to prove you wrong.

You made a statement that I disagreed with, and I offered specific reasons why I had this disagreement.  It was never about proving you wrong, but rather, inviting discussion.  You made the claim initially, but did not give specific reasons why you had this stance, except for people you respect say it is so.  At any time, someone, scholar or no, could have stated specifics as to why they feel my observations are incorrect, but only one even made such an attempt.  I was happy over that response, though it was in disagreement with me.  I was seeking reasoned discussion.  A blanket statement was made, I offered my observations with reasoning and experience to back it, solely for the purpose of discovering more about other peoples' take on the subject.

You are right that you don't have to prove me wrong, unless, of course, you wish a discussion.  Since you made the initial claim, I don't have to prove you wrong (according to the rule you stated), but I did offer reasons behind my disagreement.

I am very open to discussion, and it matters not if my position is correct or incorrect.  Simply stating that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that "scholars" say something different (without offering any evidence as to how their point of view is justified), are discussion killers.

And I don't need verifiable, court-approved, incontrovertable proof.  Nice if you have it, but I am more interested in your beliefs and how those are derived.




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« Reply #243: August 12, 2007, 06:06:28 pm »

A.) Randall isn't threatening you.  He's stating the obvious--if you think you can make wild, unsubstantiated claims without comment here, you're mistaken.  And if you can't deal with that, you might be happier on a board that doesn't have such an academic bent.  B.)  His scholars are better than yours, if only by virtue of the fact that you've yet to produce any scholars to back up your claims.

Unless I'm completely mistaken (and I don't think I am), I remember you from elsewhere, Pretz.  As a mod, you didn't have nearly the patience that Randall does.  I'd thank my lucky stars, were I you...

Brina

You remember me correctly.  True that Randall has more patience than I, but I showed great restraint in dealing with your special little friends.

I suggest you speak in private to whomever will listen to you.  Out of respect for Randall, I will not engage you further.
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RandallS
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« Reply #244: August 12, 2007, 06:16:47 pm »

I suggest you speak in private to whomever will listen to you.  Out of respect for Randall, I will not engage you further.


*** MOD HAT ON ***Please do not tell other members what to post or how to post. Please leave the moderating to the staff as our rules require. Please read the board rules again now. Thank you.
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« Reply #245: August 12, 2007, 06:23:30 pm »

A blanket statement was made, I offered my observations with reasoning and experience to back it, solely for the purpose of discovering more about other peoples' take on the subject.

Which you got. Grin  It seems most here disagree with you and prefer to go with established scholarship on the subject. If you want to convince us otherwise, you will need to present some strong support for your ideas -- strong enough to overthrow established scholarship on this subject.  In the absence of some scholarly support for your position, I don't see much to discuss. Most of the regulars here just aren't that interested in alternate and/or revisionist version of history unless there is some relatively strong support for the position.
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« Reply #246: August 12, 2007, 07:23:35 pm »

You remember me correctly.  True that Randall has more patience than I, but I showed great restraint in dealing with your special little friends.

A lot of people would (and did) disagree with you there, Pretz.  I seem to recall that the actions taken by staff there were not in your favor either.  In short, I'm sensing a pattern.

Brina
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« Reply #247: August 12, 2007, 07:47:12 pm »

Brina, Pretz ..

Please, keep things from other boards on other boards or otherwise in private.  This is NOT the place for rehashing other board conflicts.

Thank you.

HeartShadow - Message Board Coordinator.
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« Reply #248: August 13, 2007, 12:10:15 am »

This is NOT the place for rehashing other board conflicts.

Couldn't agree more.

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« Reply #249: August 13, 2007, 08:05:31 pm »

It appears to me that the term "Christianity" has some of the same problems as the term "Pagan"; only the most vague and non-specific definitions apply to the majority of either group.  "Christianity" seems to be as much an umbrella term as "Paganism".

The most basic definition of a Christian is one who follows the teachings of Jesus and accepts him as the Christ.  However, some Christian branches and sects use much more specific and exclusive guidelines.  Roman Catholics, Mormons, and Seventh Day Adventists are a few examples of Christians who are not viewed as Christians by many others.  Yet these groups self-identify as Christians, and are usually viewed by outsiders as Christians.

Christianity is an umbrella term...and I find it very VERY amusing that some Christians of the evangelical bent view Catholicism as non Christian...especially since ALL Christian faiths are descended from Catholicism. It was the FIRST organized Christian religion.

That is how PROTESTANT Christianity came about...as a PROTEST to abuses that were perceived to be in the Catholic Church in the 16th (?) century by Martin Luthor...a Catholic monk.

Church of England is the 2nd Christian religion - created because Henry the 8th wanted to marry Anne Boleyn and also because he felt that the Pope had no right to order him as he was an annointed king.

Lutheranism is next formed by follower of Martin Luthor.

From there you get the various other Protestant religions such as Methodists, Baptists (which have numerous sub Baptist sects), Quakers, Puritans, Hugonauts, Presbyterian, etc.

But, first and foremost Christianity started out as Catholic.

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« Reply #250: August 13, 2007, 08:34:38 pm »

Christianity is an umbrella term...and I find it very VERY amusing that some Christians of the evangelical bent view Catholicism as non Christian...especially since ALL Christian faiths are descended from Catholicism. It was the FIRST organized Christian religion.

s/ALL/ALL WESTERN.

Not that it's uncommon for people to forget the entire existence of the Orthodox Church in the West and all, but the first Christian split is the Catholic/Orthodox one.  (And I believe some Orthodox can't understand why Catholics are at all concerned with those minor German heresies known as 'Protestantism'.)
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« Reply #251: August 13, 2007, 09:18:07 pm »

s/ALL/ALL WESTERN.

Not that it's uncommon for people to forget the entire existence of the Orthodox Church in the West and all, but the first Christian split is the Catholic/Orthodox one.  (And I believe some Orthodox can't understand why Catholics are at all concerned with those minor German heresies known as 'Protestantism'.)

I sit corrected. I totally forgot the Eastern Orthodox Church.

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RandallS
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« Reply #252: August 13, 2007, 10:30:59 pm »

Christianity is an umbrella term...and I find it very VERY amusing that some Christians of the evangelical bent view Catholicism as non Christian...especially since ALL Christian faiths are descended from Catholicism. It was the FIRST organized Christian religion.

Sort of. There were some Christian groups in the Middle East area that were cut off from the rest of Christianity and organized on their own about the same time as what became the Catholic Church was organizing in Europe. I think the Catholic Church was first, but these separate groups definitely predate the Great Schism between the Roman church and the Eastern churches.
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« Reply #253: August 17, 2007, 12:33:28 am »

Sort of. There were some Christian groups in the Middle East area that were cut off from the rest of Christianity and organized on their own about the same time as what became the Catholic Church was organizing in Europe. I think the Catholic Church was first, but these separate groups definitely predate the Great Schism between the Roman church and the Eastern churches.


And to bring part of this back to the Christian/pagan issue, yes, there are dozens if not hundreds of Christian sects all over the world, and many of them believe that some of the others aren't real Christians.  But one thing they all have in common is their monotheistic agreement of Christ's statement that 'no one comes to the Father but through me' (I'm unsure of the exact text, but everyone knows the line).  They all believe that The Only God that a Christian can worship is Jehovah through His Incarnation as Jesus, the Christ, son of Man, Lamb of God, etc.  No Christian sect, large or small, allows for any worship of any other god.

Therefore, it seems reasonable to me to assume that people finding their personal spirituality satisfied by worshiping Jesus in company with other god or gods can no longer be considered Christians and should use a different label for their personal form(s) of spirituality.  Obviously, there's no enforcement body; it's up to individuals to embrace that kind of intellectual honesty.  Or not.

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« Reply #254: August 18, 2007, 03:26:53 am »


Church of England is the 2nd Christian religion - created because Henry the 8th wanted to marry Anne Boleyn and also because he felt that the Pope had no right to order him as he was an annointed king.

I do have to say this is right, but you forgot something. Smiley

Henry broke off from the Church because yes, he wanted to marry Anne Boleyn, because he wanted a male heir. And after 18 years or so of marriage with Catherine of Aragon only produced a daughter. He wanted the Pope (who was allied with Catherine's relatives, one of which was the Roman Emporer) to grant him a divorce on the grounds that her annulment to Henry's brother, Arthur, was false and that they did consumate their marriage before he died.

Of course the Pope said no, so Henry broke off and made is own chuch, and outlawed (or pretty much close to) Cathlocism. And the rest is history.


Sorry to go off-topic here. ^^;
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