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Author Topic: Special Topic: Why We're Touchy About Defining Paganism  (Read 45037 times)
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« Reply #30: April 20, 2007, 08:56:09 am »

I -- and many other Pagans, I suspect -- am not willing to give up the very useful word "Pagan" just because it cannot be defined both accurately and in a "positive" ("what it is") manner. While some people don't like "negative" ("what it isn't") definitions, there really isn't anything inherently wrong with them.

Hmmm, interesting. I honestly hadn't realized that there was such hefty debate about this simple term. Has anyone here ever seen this theory? http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism.htm

The writer here states that there is a general consensus that the word 'pagan' evolved from the Roman word "paganus", the meaning of which is also a point of great contention. It seems as if it is most often translated to mean something similar to "hick" or "bumpkin"!  Cheesy I can live with that. Perhaps a truer definition of the word Pagan is simply, "one who is content with themselves and their forms of worship."  Wink
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« Reply #31: April 20, 2007, 09:04:34 am »

Hmmm, interesting. I honestly hadn't realized that there was such hefty debate about this simple term.

Hence the special topic dealing with it.  Wink

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Perhaps a truer definition of the word Pagan is simply, "one who is content with themselves and their forms of worship."  Wink

Ah, but I know many Christians who are content with themselves and their forms of worship too, and I doubt anyone would seriously argue that they are Pagans.  (I'm sure this is true of other non-Pagan religions too; it was just a handy example.)
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« Reply #32: April 20, 2007, 09:19:17 am »

The writer here states that there is a general consensus that the word 'pagan' evolved from the Roman word "paganus", the meaning of which is also a point of great contention. It seems as if it is most often translated to mean something similar to "hick" or "bumpkin"! 

I've never understood why this is a problem today.  I don't see why anyone would how the Latin word the English word came from was used during a long ago period of history?  Strangely, I've noticed that most of the people who have problems with this do not have problems with continuing to use the word "witch" although for most of its fairly recent history it meant a person who does magic via a deal with Satan. Smiley
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« Reply #33: April 20, 2007, 09:29:51 am »

I've never understood why this is a problem today.  I don't see why anyone would how the Latin word the English word came from was used during a long ago period of history?  Strangely, I've noticed that most of the people who have problems with this do not have problems with continuing to use the word "witch" although for most of its fairly recent history it meant a person who does magic via a deal with Satan. Smiley

Maybe because "freaky powerful person" has a lot more street cred than "hick". Cheesy
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« Reply #34: April 20, 2007, 09:59:28 am »

Maybe because "freaky powerful person" has a lot more street cred than "hick". Cheesy

ROFL Oh that so nails it.  Cheesy As I was reading your post, Randall, I was thinking...

Hmmmm, Yes, but then again no. Languages, like People, are constantly evolving whether we know it or not lol. When a word that meant one thing is suddenly used as slang for something else, and then becomes archaic... it is easy to begin loosing just what the definition of the word should be. Maybe that is why we have so difficult a time defining the word Pagan? HmmmThe lines blur and time adds to that confusion. 1984 is a powerful, and frightening, look at this aspect of ourselves too.

Whatever the label is, if you are accepting it as a descriptive word for yourself you are, in part, defining yourself. I see the word Pagan as standing apart from the other Religious descriptives, ever-changing, ever-evolving, filled with joys, sorrows, histories, truimphs, mistakes, lessons learned and unlearned, laughter and... of course... love and hope. Much as I see myself. I accept the word, as I accept myself.... a unique thing like all the Others around me, and not defined the same twice all though we may use the same words to descripe the same thing. I also accept the term Others just as readily and not solely for the humorous "which box do I check" aspect of it. Grin Witch is term I'm more used to using amongst the comfort of friends who understand each other. No matter how you look at it though... We are fascinating and exasperating creatures, aren't we?

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« Reply #35: April 20, 2007, 10:14:07 am »

Maybe because "freaky powerful person" has a lot more street cred than "hick". Cheesy

*snort*  Depends on where you're at.

Of course, the places where the reverse is true tend to have a lower population density of witches, I think...  they tend to be less friendly to such.  So this might be a moot point.  Wink
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« Reply #36: April 20, 2007, 11:05:35 am »

I -- and many other Pagans, I suspect -- am not willing to give up the very useful word "Pagan" just because it cannot be defined both accurately and in a "positive" ("what it is") manner. While some people don't like "negative" ("what it isn't") definitions, there really isn't anything inherently wrong with them.

I agree Randall, I myself use the term Pagan quite regularly. However I merely threw up the suggestion as an alternate possiblity. The main point in my previous post however was the fact that there is such a diversity of faith under the pagan banner that it is somewhat limiting when trying to describe every faith by using one word. I agree that there is nothing wrong with a negative description, but since we are discussing things, I wonder does the single word do justice to all that fall under it's far reaching gaze?

I happily identify as pagan, however due to following a somewhat individual path I often have to explain various influences when speaking about my own faith. This means that after using the umbrella identifier of pagan I then go on to explain my belief structure. This of course happens with every faith be it pagan or not, however when one speaks of a JCIM faith most listeners understand at least the basic principles of belief, i.e you worship God or Allah etc... When using the term pagan however, the replies I have recieved are generally variations of "What's that?" or "Oh you're wiccan." Which to me starts to suggest that the word is not descriptive enough, or that society's perception of the word is not adequate.
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« Reply #37: April 20, 2007, 11:19:16 am »

When using the term pagan however, the replies I have recieved are generally variations of "What's that?" or "Oh you're wiccan." Which to me starts to suggest that the word is not descriptive enough, or that society's perception of the word is not adequate.

A combination of the two factors, I think.  In general terms, though, people often don't care about the specifics, they're just making polite conversation.  In such a situation, "I'm Pagan" is more than enough answer; making sure that they understand exactly what you mean by that isn't really all that necessary.  If they want to continue the discussion, then you can get more specific and clarify (or correct misconceptions, like Pagan=Wiccan) at that time.  *shrug*

And really...  One common solution to this problem is to say that people should identify themselves by the names of their specific paths instead of just saying "Pagan".  This has other problems, but most pertinent to this particular bit of conversation, a lot of those paths are going to need just as much explaining before the average Joe on the street knows what you mean.  Most people outside the pagan community (whatever that is) don't, I think, know words like "Kemetic" and "Hellenismos" and "Feri" and "Discordian" and "Asatru".  Or even "Reconstructionist".  Wicca, that does help them somewhat (although they may not have good information on it, they've at least heard of it), but many of the path names that pop up around here...  not so much.  So we're back at square one, as far as useful ways to identify ourselves to the general populace.
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« Reply #38: April 22, 2007, 10:52:57 pm »

a JCIM 

What does the M stand for?

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« Reply #39: May 05, 2007, 11:03:23 pm »

I think I have a hard time defining paganism because I'm still defining it myself.  It's hard to describe something that makes sense, but is still in most parts abstract.  I don't want to always have to define myself or defend my beliefs.  I grew up being in a place where I didn't believe everything that was being said, but I wasn't able to disagree.  Now I'm in a position where I can agree or disagree as I choose because *I* choose my path, not someone else.  I like the fact that I can pick and choose my own beliefs.  It just so happens that I believe in a god and a goddess, that all things are divine, that I've survived many lives before this one, and I"ll make it through a few more (I hope Wink )  I believe that the voices in my head make me gifted, not crazy, and that sex, love, and rock and roll will not send me to hell.  well... I don't believe in hell, so it'd be kind of difficult... 
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« Reply #40: May 05, 2007, 11:12:23 pm »

What does the M stand for?

Sasha

I'm going to guess it's for Muslim...the OP may not realize that Islam is the same thing.

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« Reply #41: May 27, 2007, 03:22:18 pm »

  In general terms, though, people often don't care about the specifics, they're just making polite conversation.  In such a situation, "I'm Pagan" is more than enough answer; making sure that they understand exactly what you mean by that isn't really all that necessary. 

This is also my position toward the use of the term pagan.  However my use of pagan doesn't get any more specific, because I don't have a more specific spirituality.  And the pagan definition ala Cauldron expresses everything I want it to.  I feel the same towards Unitarian Universalism, yeah it is a church but most members that I know won't give the same definition of what the church stands for, if they can come up with one at all.

What I think it is interesting is that even though I generally agree with the Cauldron definition of pagan, I personally am going to use the term, slightly differently, because it means something slightly different to me.  When I think of the word pagan in my head, I fill in my spirituality, most of which isn't readily accessible for expression, but it generally fits with pagan so that is what comes out.  Quite likely who ever is on the recieving end will have a definition of pagan that pops into their head that only has the most superficial commonalities to my definition, which I think is what is mostly described by the Cauldron definition.  But it is enough.     

If my experience is not completely unique regarding the use of the term pagan, I think that is one of the best qualities of the term, it's amorphous character.  Many people can have slightly different versions for its definition when it gets down to specifics, yet it is still useful to convey a general message.   

I also think the term pagan has by itself a quality that doesn't fit into definitions.  Most people recognize what it means, even if they can't express it, it is an implicit meaning, that underlies even the Cauldron definition. 

Not to create a tangent, but merely to make an analogy, I think this same framework applies to the word God.  Some people think Abrahamic God (even within this set I think each individual has their own version), some a specific pantheon figure, others the universal divine, but if I say in mixed company "God wants me to X" most people will have at least some common enough definition to understand what I mean, even if their specific definition is very different.  Furthermore the term God has that unexpressable quality that is a part of the common definition which makes it such a powerful word.

Lastly words are words.  So whatever your philosophy is to the significance of language and "communication" through words will pretty much describe what your philosophy is to these words attached to abstract concepts.  Personally for abstract concepts I tend to think in terms of the effectiveness of thought transfer rather than relation to truth and "reality" because like I said we are in abstract land, and how do you apply the abstract idea of truth and reality to another abstract.  I end up crosseyed and sleepy. 

So in conclusion Pagan is the most effective word I have found for "communicating" the abstract quality of my spirituality to others.  It is useful and helps me move forward. That is IMO the strongest defense of this word. 
 
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« Reply #42: June 01, 2007, 09:53:05 am »

I wrote this bit about Paganism quite a while back.  It has been posted on other forums, so perhaps some of you have read it before.  Just wanted to offer my thoughts as to what Paganism means to me.

Paganism is learning from and living in harmony with nature, all the bloodshed and violence included with all the “love.”  Paganism is an inner consciousness that sees the real world/nature in all its glory.

As much as I want to stay away from comparing other religions to Paganism, it is virtually impossible as there is a need to show what Paganism is NOT in order to show was Paganism IS.  In that light, it is impossible for me to believe that any “person” was chosen to bring God’s message to man in the “words of man” as the universe made by God is itself God’s language and much more precise and eloquent than man could ever be.

Paganism is about man’s relationship to god, with “god” and “nature” as having the same connotation.  Nature is god in action.   Man learns from nature what works and what doesn’t work by trial and error.  He learns a “sense” of good and evil from the repercussions of his actions.  Every man is an “individual” and must prove his own “honor”.  In as such he holds honor sacred and not “life”.  Not weeding out the unhonorable and/or weaklings is against nature’s purpose and became the downfall of the Pagan way of life due to the influence of Christianity.

Religions such as Judaism and Christianity are about a man/man relationship in which nature and the very essence of god are rendered meaningless.  God is a figurehead used to exercise and force morals and values on the community.  These religions destroy the individual for the sake of the family and community by requiring servitude and self-sacrifice.  This a metropolitan view and not a natural nature-based view.

The original Pagan was a man of freedom from inhibition.  He had a robust love of life expressed in his everyday life, eating, drinking, fighting, loving, singing, dancing, and perceiving his god.  This spirit is born of his interaction with nature.  During the mostly “forced” influx of religion, A dark shadow was cast by a belief that men are born heirs to “the sin of Adam” and has done much to destroy man’s love of life. 

The original and only true Pagans were whole beings of individual perception and volition.  They were men and woman in true sense of the word.  They knew themselves and perceived each other as god-entities.  The whole of the world was good to them and that good filled their very souls to overflowing.  Their joy leaped and sang in every aspect of their lives.  It was a song of harmony and love in a world they knew to be imperfect.  The objective of a self-destructing religion was unacceptable to those who postulated the joy of living as good.

Religion is a man culture and breeds its own kind.  We have co-existence of the strong and the weak, adult criminals and juvenile delinquents, welfare for those who cannot feed themselves, and medical aid keeping those alive that nature would have discreetly weeded out.  We have “states” so large and powerful that they lay claim to all the world’s land making it impossible for a man to detach from said state and be “free” rendering him a slave and keeping him within “boundaries” both physical and mental by teaching the “good” of community and the “evil” of selfishness/individualism.  Spirit was bred out of man in favor of the letter of the law, and honesty was replaced by legality.   

When the Ten Commandments where imposed on Pagans, the first three dealt with the concept of God as supreme and replaced all other gods, hence a decision needed to be made as to for or against and the deciding factor was sometimes life or death at the end of a sword.  The fourth commandment of resting on the Sabbath gave a welcomed holiday of celebration.  Honoring the father and mother (whether they were worthy of honor or not) instead of finding honor within oneself was designed to preserve the family unit.  Not stealing and not coveting were meaningless as Pagans measured a man by heroism and not by possessions.  But not killing was foreign to the Pagan way of life and was seen as utterly ridiculous.  Not to kill would upset the weeding out of undesirable and unworthy and unhonorable men.  Not killing meant the world be populated with the undesirable and the weak, defeating nature’s law.  But as the Christian’s of the time were involved in “killing for the glory of God”, killing was still possible. 

“The whole of the world, the whole of the creation that we perceive objectively, is good; and the good that is within ourselves fills our beings to overflowing.  Our joy leaps and sings.  This good is presently existing, not something to be achieved.  It is a song perceived during the singing by the being that knows harmony with it.  It not ‘good’ conceived as ‘fitness,’ a concept that can undermine joy, but of being by the claim that both we and the world are ‘imperfect.’” *

* The Pagan Bible, Melvin Gorham
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« Reply #43: June 01, 2007, 10:21:40 am »

I wrote this bit about Paganism quite a while back.  It has been posted on other forums, so perhaps some of you have read it before.  Just wanted to offer my thoughts as to what Paganism means to me.

Since you specify it's about what Paganism means to you personally I won't pick at the Paganism portions of it too hard, although I will say that as someone who disagrees with portions of it, it would be nice if the essay weren't worded as though it were presenting The Truth About Pagans instead of just your perspective on Paganism.  Wink

This, however...

Quote
Religions such as Judaism and Christianity are about a man/man relationship in which nature and the very essence of god are rendered meaningless.  God is a figurehead used to exercise and force morals and values on the community.  These religions destroy the individual for the sake of the family and community by requiring servitude and self-sacrifice.  This a metropolitan view and not a natural nature-based view.

I know an awful lot of Christians who would disagree with that entire paragraph. 

The church I grew up in, for example, was practicing rudimentary environmentalism before it became "hip" to do so, doing things like recycling and asking members to bring in their own resuable coffee mugs instead of providing disposable styrofoam ones.  They saw, and still see to the best of my knowledge, themselves as stewards of their God's creation.  Nature is hardly meaningless to them. 

In addition, I was a part of this congregation for fifteen years and still attend very rarely with my husband or mother, and never in all that time do I remember morals and values being forced on anyone.  The church and God provided guidance, yes, but I never, ever remember hearing anything like "do this or burn in Hell", never any claim that the burden of discerning right from wrong was anyone's but my own. 

As far as destroying individuality--far from it.  Individual talents were recognized and cultivated, individual issues addressed individually.  No one was a faceless number in the crowd.  Everyone was asked to do their part, so I guess some self-sacrifice and servitude was technically required, but...  I mean, that's part of being a community.  It was never taken to destructive lengths; everyone contributed according to what they could do, not how much the church could wring out of them.

In a more general sense, I also know many Christians who feel a very real and personal connection to their God.  To them, He is far from a figurehead and His essence is far from meaningless.

Are there Christians and perhaps even whole congregations or even denominations of Christianity who fit your description?  Yes, certainly, on the individual level; probably on the group levels as well.  But I don't think it's at all fair to paint all Christians with such a broad brush just because of a few bad apples, if I can mix my metaphors here for a second.

I am not as familiar with Judaism and its followers, but I would not be surprised to find out that many of these things apply there as well.

Quote
The original Pagan

Personal differences in religion aside, these parts about "the original Pagan" are stated as fact rather than personal viewpoint.  As such, I'd like to know a little more about what your sources are, and have some more detail on some of the information you present.  For example, who was this original Pagan?  What time frame are we talking about here, and what area of the world?  How did you come to your conclusions about his lifestyle and religion?

Quote
When the Ten Commandments where imposed on Pagans,

And again, I would really like to see some sources here.  It has been such a long time since the Ten Commandments were written that I'm kind of skeptical about assigning motivations to them, and would like to see how these conclusions were drawn.
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« Reply #44: June 01, 2007, 10:36:57 am »

Paganism is about man’s relationship to god, with “god” and “nature” as having the same connotation.  Nature is god in action.   Man learns from nature what works and what doesn’t work by trial and error.  He learns a “sense” of good and evil from the repercussions of his actions.  Every man is an “individual” and must prove his own “honor”.  In as such he holds honor sacred and not “life”.  Not weeding out the unhonorable and/or weaklings is against nature’s purpose and became the downfall of the Pagan way of life due to the influence of Christianity.

Correct me if I'm wrong .. but doesn't this basically say that we should kill off our weak?  Forget modern medicine, forget caring for each other, forget cooperation .. survival of the fittest, kill off the weak, expose our babies on hillsides if they're imperfect?

Is that really what you're saying Paganism is?

Because if I believed that, trust me, I'd never call myself Pagan.  EVER.  the idea is repulsive.
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