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Author Topic: Fuck the First Amendment  (Read 17958 times)
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« Reply #60: September 01, 2008, 01:18:59 am »

Yep. And this bothers me equally as much at the DNC as it does at the RNC.

Me, too.
OTOH, the RNC has not even started yet; what were these alleged "protesters" protesting?  And what were the protesters in Denver protesting?  Isn't the Democratic party their party?  I just don't understand...

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« Reply #61: September 01, 2008, 09:38:24 am »

I read one of the Salon pieces and noticed he seemed to be making an issue of "semi-automatic guns".  I don't think there is a police force in the US that is not using semi-auto weapons at all times for all officers.  It makes things sound scary, but it's quite normal. It also means I take his description of any kind of gun with a grain of salt.  Which article said that the police were using machine guns? 

This might be my mistake (I'm much better on pre-modern weaponry), but Thain hit the points I'd have mentioned.

Quote
I don't expect to see much information released about how the police developed their information.  It was probably an informant or technal means.  Either way, they won't present that until the warrents are challenged.

I don't mean "Here's where we got our info" - but I would like (and I think it is reasonable) for someone - and maybe this would be an elected official, rather than the police - say "We had concerns about X, Y, and Z really dangerous things: we wanted to use large amounts of force because we were concerned people might escape/things might escalate/etc. We understand that the warrant was not shown until very late in the process: this is a problem, and I am taking steps to make sure that due legal process is followed. We'll have an update on these issues at Y time, and I encourage anyone with concerns about how this has been handled to contact [special staffed line at appropriate office]"

In other words, I expect them to understand that there may be legitimate and serious concerns about these actions, to provide information that might at least give some context for the choices, and to provide some kind of way for people with concerns to raise them. They have not done a very good job of the last one, in particular: phone lines have been busy, gone to generic voice mail, etc.

(One other thing does occur to me: the Twin Cities has a large Hmong population, and a large Somali population: both groups who spent time in refugee camps or strongly affected by military actions and instability. Handling things this way must be particularly challenging for people in these communities who survived those times in their countries of origin, and again would be a *really* good reason for extra attention to clarity and general information.)

The elected officials? Not so much doing that. And I resent that about as much as I do the police action in the first place. (In part because I get that the individual police don't have tons of leeway in how they're going about this.)
While you can protect against irritants with masks, masks are of no use against explosives which were also listed on the warrents.  Note also that dynamic entry was denied.  You are also dealing with apparently a large crowd to get only a few people.  The police don't want the entry to escalate, so they use a show of overwhelming force.  You don't want some hot head to think they can grab away the suspect, which could easily lead to a shoot out. [/quote]

Yeah, but what about showing the warrant once that's happened, if you truly have to do it that way? (In at least one case, and I think at least two of them, warrants were not shown until the police were done with the house - 45+ minutes after the raid began.) There is *no* reason this had to happen - according to a number of people involved, including neighbors/bystanders/etc. the people in the houses were not fighting back or anything: they did as they were told, but did ask about a warrant.

(Young kids thing already answered.)
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« Reply #62: September 01, 2008, 09:55:58 am »

Me, too.
OTOH, the RNC has not even started yet; what were these alleged "protesters" protesting?  And what were the protesters in Denver protesting?  Isn't the Democratic party their party?  I just don't understand...



That's part of the problem. They weren't protesting yet. This was a preemptive strike, so to speak, against them.
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« Reply #63: September 01, 2008, 10:16:32 am »

That's part of the problem. They weren't protesting yet. This was a preemptive strike, so to speak, against them.

When I mentioned this to my parents last night, their response just about made me sick.  My mom said, "Believe me, they had a reason.  These people weren't good people, and they even showed the lady organizing all the groups saying, 'They're going to feel us there.  We're going to make our presence known.' "

Nothing that I can find indicates anything even resembling that statement, but even so, that's hardly a threat of violence...it's more of a, "We will not go softly into that good night."

No matter what, though, due process was definitely violated, and that's just sickening.
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« Reply #64: September 01, 2008, 10:19:48 am »

When I mentioned this to my parents last night, their response just about made me sick.  My mom said, "Believe me, they had a reason.  These people weren't good people, and they even showed the lady organizing all the groups saying, 'They're going to feel us there.  We're going to make our presence known.' "

That sounds like something Randall has told me his dad used to say. He believed everyone arrested was guilty otherwise the police wouldn't have arrested them.

Fortunately, Randall didn't inherit that set of genes.
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« Reply #65: September 01, 2008, 10:55:52 am »

Yeah, but what about showing the warrant once that's happened, if you truly have to do it that way? (In at least one case, and I think at least two of them, warrants were not shown until the police were done with the house - 45+ minutes after the raid began.) There is *no* reason this had to happen - according to a number of people involved, including neighbors/bystanders/etc. the people in the houses were not fighting back or anything: they did as they were told, but did ask about a warrant.

(Young kids thing already answered.)

lots more about this on Starhawk's blog
http://www.starhawk.org/index.html
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« Reply #66: September 01, 2008, 02:52:26 pm »

lots more about this on Starhawk's blog
http://www.starhawk.org/index.html

The thing on the seizing of the Permibus is interesting.  Why would you seize a bus like that?
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« Reply #67: September 01, 2008, 05:16:10 pm »

That sounds like something Randall has told me his dad used to say. He believed everyone arrested was guilty otherwise the police wouldn't have arrested them.

To be fair, by the time he was saying things like that he had had several mild heart attacks, avery mild stroke, and had spend years on massive doages of high blood pressure medicine. Be he did seem to sincerely believe it.
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« Reply #68: September 01, 2008, 05:25:22 pm »

The thing on the seizing of the Permibus is interesting.  Why would you seize a bus like that?

Because they were connected to Reclaiming people who were staying at the house where the anarchists were, in part, I'd assume. Reclaiming activists get hassled by cops with great regularity, and it is not the first time EAT stuff has been seized.
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« Reply #69: September 01, 2008, 11:32:16 pm »

lots more about this on Starhawk's blog
http://www.starhawk.org/index.html

You realize, though that this shit isn't going to stop.  It will just keep getting worse, albeit slower with a Democrat in office, but no matter who is in there it will just continue.

Bush and those aligned with him, have started this country on a path that will not end until we are completely a police state.  (I had thought of this earlier today, but was reminded of it by comments to that article.)  I don't think things have gotten quite so bad that we have hit police state status yet, as no one has come through my door yet waving guns, but, without some drastic and immediate changes, it will happen.  I really just hope my line dies out before then, otherwise they are going to have to deal with some very not nice kids.
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« Reply #70: September 02, 2008, 05:02:21 am »

"Conspiracy to commit riot"??

Buh-bye First Amendment. It was nice having you.

Police target protesters at RNC convention

ST. PAUL, Minn. - Republican National Convention protesters targeted in a series of police raids Friday night and Saturday say they won't back down from their plans to march on the event's opening day.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26471627/

Apparently nobody got hurt, but throwing bags of concrete and sand off of an overpass isn't "peaceful".

http://www.startribune.com/politics/27736044.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsr

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/09/02/032634.php

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« Reply #71: September 02, 2008, 05:14:11 am »

You realize, though that this shit isn't going to stop.  It will just keep getting worse, albeit slower with a Democrat in office, but no matter who is in there it will just continue.

Bush and those aligned with him, have started this country on a path that will not end until we are completely a police state.  (I had thought of this earlier today, but was reminded of it by comments to that article.)  I don't think things have gotten quite so bad that we have hit police state status yet, as no one has come through my door yet waving guns, but, without some drastic and immediate changes, it will happen.  I really just hope my line dies out before then, otherwise they are going to have to deal with some very not nice kids.

Yep, the not nice kids had all sorts of stuff for the RNC.

http://www.twincities.com/ci_10344356?source=email

Look at the slide show. 

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/09/rnc-anti-war-le.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080901/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_protests
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« Reply #72: September 02, 2008, 08:10:58 am »

Apparently nobody got hurt, but throwing bags of concrete and sand off of an overpass isn't "peaceful".

You'll know that the article points out that this was a small portion of the protesters -- after everyone else had called it a day. No problem with these folks being arrested -- they had actually done something.
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« Reply #73: September 02, 2008, 09:33:41 am »

You'll know that the article points out that this was a small portion of the protesters -- after everyone else had called it a day. No problem with these folks being arrested -- they had actually done something.

And I would also point out that it's the assholes who make the work of the real activists ten times harder. There is a huge difference b/w a shit disturber and an angry citizen working for real change.
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  The power of Fire,
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  The power of Air,
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  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

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« Reply #74: September 02, 2008, 09:54:03 am »

And I would also point out that it's the assholes who make the work of the real activists ten times harder. There is a huge difference b/w a shit disturber and an angry citizen working for real change.

Well, sometimes an angry citizen working for real change will actually stir up some shit.  After all, Starhawk's group did block traffic at the 2004 RNC, but they accepted the traffic citations (and the arrest) without complaint because they knew they had caused a real problem.
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