The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
September 20, 2019, 10:51:17 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 20, 2019, 10:51:17 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: The Ethics of Offerings  (Read 8243 times)
Go
Journeyman
***
Last Login:May 30, 2011, 10:32:23 pm
United States United States

Religion: A Process
Posts: 177

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Topic Start: September 03, 2008, 12:25:30 am »

Do you make offerings? 

Who do you make them to?  (Deities/Spirits/Creatures/Ancestors/Locations Etc.) 

Are there specific rules about how you make offerings (timing/location/presentation) or what you offer?

Are your offerings only pleasing to the recipient, or are they also appealing to you?

Would you offer something that did not appeal to you if asked?

Do you ever make offerings of meat?

Would you ever (or do you) engage in animal sacrifice?

Do you see a difference between offering purchased meat and animal sacrifice?

Can an offering be considered ethically "wrong" if the offerant believes it is what their Gods want?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 12:30:55 am by Go » Logged

Measure twice, cut once, and buy extra material anyway.

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Iago_Morgan
Journeyman
***
Last Login:October 12, 2010, 12:03:16 pm
United States United States

Religion: Christo-pagan-with added Wiccan flavoring
Posts: 120


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #1: September 03, 2008, 03:57:33 am »

Do you make offerings? 

Who do you make them to?  (Deities/Spirits/Creatures/Ancestors/Locations Etc.) 

Are there specific rules about how you make offerings (timing/location/presentation) or what you offer?

Are your offerings only pleasing to the recipient, or are they also appealing to you?

Would you offer something that did not appeal to you if asked?

Do you ever make offerings of meat?

Would you ever (or do you) engage in animal sacrifice?

Do you see a difference between offering purchased meat and animal sacrifice?

Can an offering be considered ethically "wrong" if the offerant believes it is what their Gods want?

I do a lot of vegetable/ herb gardening, so I keep a couple of bowls in my gardening area. My (literal) first fruits go in the bowl dedicated to my Gods (which is my polytheistic interpretation of the christian pantheon.) From there, I also make offerings to the fey and other spiritual energies in my area.

I also make offerings to the fey in the form of gold coins, I love coins and when I cash my paycheck, I get a roll of gold dollar coins. I usually offer one or two of those to the fairies near my friend's store.

The only hard fast rule that I follow is offering my first fruits to my Gods.

If I were asked by my deities to do something that I wouldn't otherwise be comfortable with, I'd prolly do it.

I don't make meat offerings (vegetarian)

On the ethics question, I guess it depends, I mean, Abraham was going to sacrifice his son, and I back him up on that. Abraham's mah homie. So I guess if it's what the Gods want, it couldn't really be unethical could it? maybe?
But then, which is worse, an ethical faux pas, or pissing off the Gods?
Logged

Circle in the night
In the dark I cloak myself in Light.
Surrounded by this Power, Magick's might
I see the ancient Fire burning bright.
Circle in the night.

-From 'Circle in the Night' by Iago Morgan
Star
Message Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:January 12, 2013, 08:36:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Reconstructionist
TCN ID: star
Posts: 9033


Etcetera, Whatever

Blog entries (0)

ilaynay starcr
WWW
« Reply #2: September 03, 2008, 05:47:50 am »

Do you make offerings? 
Who do you make them to?  (Deities/Spirits/Creatures/Ancestors/Locations Etc.) 

I make offerings to the Gods.  Usually libations of olive oil or whatever I happen to be drinking, some coinage (which gets donated to appropriate charities), some incense.  Others as appropriate, but those three are the most common.

Quote
Are your offerings only pleasing to the recipient, or are they also appealing to you?

Olive oil is not something I'd want to drink straight the way it's offered, if that's what you mean.  The incense I use is appealing to me, but that doesn't really signify in my choice of scents.  Ditto the money and drink libations.

Quote
Would you offer something that did not appeal to you if asked?

Probably that depends on whether that simply means something I don't personally enjoy, or something I have big problems with.  If it was something I just didn't enjoy, sure, I'd do it.  Why not?  The Gods are not required to share my tastes, nor vice versa.  *shrug*

Quote
Do you ever make offerings of meat?
Would you ever (or do you) engage in animal sacrifice?
Do you see a difference between offering purchased meat and animal sacrifice?

I don't make meat offerings, but that's largely because I lack the facilities to properly handle them.  I would theoretically engage in animal sacrifice, but it's not a practical option for me, so I suppose I'll probably never find out how I'd actually feel about doing it myself if it came right down to it.  (I suspect myself of being squeamish, though less for moral reasons than for psychological ones.)  And yes, I do think there's a difference between offering already-butchered meat (which is what I presume you mean by "purchased") and sacrificing a live animal yourself.  You do what you can, though.

Quote
Can an offering be considered ethically "wrong" if the offerant believes it is what their Gods want?

Oh hell yes.  Any god asking me to perform human sacrifice can go find another worshiper, frankly.  I'm sure there are other things that would qualify as well, that's just the big obvious one that springs first to mind.
Logged

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced."
-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.
Go
Journeyman
***
Last Login:May 30, 2011, 10:32:23 pm
United States United States

Religion: A Process
Posts: 177

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #3: September 03, 2008, 07:46:38 pm »

Do you make offerings? 

Who do you make them to?  (Deities/Spirits/Creatures/Ancestors/Locations Etc.) 

Are there specific rules about how you make offerings (timing/location/presentation) or what you offer?

Are your offerings only pleasing to the recipient, or are they also appealing to you?

Would you offer something that did not appeal to you if asked?

Do you ever make offerings of meat?

Would you ever (or do you) engage in animal sacrifice?

Do you see a difference between offering purchased meat and animal sacrifice?

Can an offering be considered ethically "wrong" if the offerant believes it is what their Gods want?

Yes I make offerings.

I most often make an offering of incense, candles, flowers, or candy to Ganesha.  I will also make offerings of money or alcohol to spirits, food offerings to the inhabitants of a location, libations to the earth, etc. 

There are not specific rules.  However, if I am working with someone/thing new, I will often do divination with a pendulum to see what requirements they have.  Ganesha does have preferences as to type of incense burned, though he doesn't seem to be so picky about candy or flowers.  I also offer a bit of "bread and beverage" to the earth when I find myself running Sabbats. 

Most of the offerings I make tend to be things I find pleasant, but I do make sure they fit the recipients preferences.

In most situations I would likely not make an offering I found distasteful.  I generally choose not to work with anyone who's tastes aren't compatible with my own.

I do not make offerings of meat at present, nor do I practice animal sacrifice.  However, it would not be an appropriate offering to any of the entities I am working with right now.  I would do these things if it seemed correct to do so.  Do I see a difference between these things?  Yes and no.  No, there is no difference (to the animal) whether you offer meat you purchased or meat you butchered.  Meat is meat and involves death either way.  Yes, the energy released and the level of commitment is greater with sacrifice than with purchased meat.  You cause the death of one for the pleasure of the other.  It is a stronger act of devotion or respect.

Do I think offering can be wrong?  Yes and no.  Yes, some offerings violate my personal moral views.  No, if the person presenting the offering believes it is the will of their gods it is not wrong within their personal religious reality tunnel.  Therefore they cannot be viewed as willfully engaging in amoral behavior. 
Logged

Measure twice, cut once, and buy extra material anyway.
wisdomsbane
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 23, 2008, 08:14:43 pm
United States United States

Religion: "generic" pagan/pathfinder
Posts: 856


"Meh, humans, blech!"

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #4: September 04, 2008, 04:24:02 am »


Wow, nice list.  This is going to be a fun one for me to answer.  Hehe.

Quote
Do you make offerings? 

I guess in a sense yes.

Quote
Who do you make them to?  (Deities/Spirits/Creatures/Ancestors/Locations Etc.) 

Mostly to Athena.  Sometimes to others, but that is few and far between, unless you consider nonphysical offerings.  And then nonphysical is usually what I offer to Athena, so...  (My usual offering to Athena is the dedication, in thanks, of my writings.)

Quote
Are there specific rules about how you make offerings (timing/location/presentation) or what you offer?

Not really.  I offer what, when, where, etc.  I can, and sometimes whatever,whenever, etc.  I simply choose to.  I'm a bit of an oddball in this. 

Quote
Are your offerings only pleasing to the recipient, or are they also appealing to you?

If it doesn't appeal to me, then I cannot expect that it will appeal to my gods.

Quote
Would you offer something that did not appeal to you if asked?

If I could expect that it would appeal to my gods, then yes.  Otherwise, no.  For example, I hate olives, but I like olive oil, so if I were to use a physical offering to Athena, then I would go with olive oil.  I would simply use something that has the same appeal to me as to the deity (or rather that has appeal to both of us).  My view on this is, basically, if it does not appeal to me, then I am not sacrificing anything by giving it to the deity in question.  Thus, it has less meaning for me to offer it to them in the first place.

Quote

Do you ever make offerings of meat?

No.  But if I find the need to offer such to a deity, then I would.

Quote
Would you ever (or do you) engage in animal sacrifice?

Don't do it.  Might if it was necessary, but that is unlikely.

Quote
Do you see a difference between offering purchased meat and animal sacrifice?

Yes.  But it depends on what the offering is supposed to be.  If it supposed to be the sacrifice of a life, then purchased meat would be wrong.  If it is the sacrifice of, say, the time spent to prepare and cook the meat, or something like that, then the offering of purchased meat would be acceptable.  I'm not really sure I was very clear on that one.  I'm starting to run out of steam...

Quote
Can an offering be considered ethically "wrong" if the offerant believes it is what their Gods want?

That really depends on what you think of ethics.  It may also depend on the religion.  For example, murder is ethically wrong, not only in many countries (in fact, in most countries it is not only ethically but legally wrong), but in many religions.  And so, human sacrifice, if considered murder, would be ethically wrong.  It's a case of social standards, as much as it is a case of religious standards.

I could believe that my gods want me to sacrifice my firstborn child, but that does not make it ethically right, at least not on a social level, nor to most modern religions.  Again, my brain is a bit foggy at the moment, I really need some sleep.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 04:26:26 am by wisdomsbane » Logged

What you think is possible.  Anything that is possible can become real.  Therefore, reality is a state of mind.
My Writings So Far
Star
Message Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:January 12, 2013, 08:36:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Reconstructionist
TCN ID: star
Posts: 9033


Etcetera, Whatever

Blog entries (0)

ilaynay starcr
WWW
« Reply #5: September 04, 2008, 05:42:07 am »

My view on this is, basically, if it does not appeal to me, then I am not sacrificing anything by giving it to the deity in question.  Thus, it has less meaning for me to offer it to them in the first place.

See, I see offerings and sacrifice as different things.  To me, an offering is just a gift.  "Here, I saw this and thought you'd like it."  I don't think offerings have to involve giving up anything, nor do they have anything to do with my personal tastes; they're about the recipient, not the giver.  Sacrifices I do see as more about a show of devotion by means of giving up something--"see, I have this thing and I need/want it myself, but I'm willing to give it to you because you mean that much to me".  There, the idea of the thing you're sacrificing needing to be something that you have some desire for makes more sense to me.
Logged

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced."
-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.
ladywhitewolf
Journeyman
***
Last Login:September 23, 2012, 12:21:57 am
United States United States

Religion: polytheist pagan with leanings towards Shamanism/animism
Posts: 225


Whitewolf

Blog entries (0)

White_Wolf1 Lady Whitewolf


Ignore
« Reply #6: September 04, 2008, 06:39:54 am »

Who do you make them to?  (Deities/Spirits/Creatures/Ancestors/Locations Etc.)  Yes, I do make offerings to the Gods/Goddesses and Nature spirits.  I like lighting incense and using it as an offering.


Are there specific rules about how you make offerings (timing/location/presentation) or what you offer?
No, there are no specific rules of what I offer. 

Are your offerings only pleasing to the recipient, or are they also appealing to you? Both.

Would you offer something that did not appeal to you if asked? No.  If I didn't feel comfortable I wouldn't offer it.

Do you ever make offerings of meat? No

Would you ever (or do you) engage in animal sacrifice? No.  I would offer meat to my deities tho.

Can an offering be considered ethically "wrong" if the offerant believes it is what their Gods want?  It depends on the religion.

 
Logged

Jessica [aka Whitewolf]
wisdomsbane
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 23, 2008, 08:14:43 pm
United States United States

Religion: "generic" pagan/pathfinder
Posts: 856


"Meh, humans, blech!"

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #7: September 05, 2008, 02:29:30 am »

See, I see offerings and sacrifice as different things.  To me, an offering is just a gift.  "Here, I saw this and thought you'd like it."  I don't think offerings have to involve giving up anything, nor do they have anything to do with my personal tastes; they're about the recipient, not the giver.  Sacrifices I do see as more about a show of devotion by means of giving up something--"see, I have this thing and I need/want it myself, but I'm willing to give it to you because you mean that much to me".  There, the idea of the thing you're sacrificing needing to be something that you have some desire for makes more sense to me.

Actually that makes sense to me. Although, I tend to avoid giving something in gifts, even to people, which wouldn't please me, as well.  I usually go for gifts that would show our common interests, what connects us.  I have the same idea about offerings.  It shows that you care enough to keep in mind the things that bring you closer together.  (The whole "gift from the heart, not from the wallet" idea my gram raised me with.)  But, this, I think is more a personal preference for me than anything.  Also, I think of those who give something to someone (including offerings to gods) that they simply didn't need or want, and had lying around the house.  That doesn't seem very meaningful, except possibly as cleaning up your own space, which would be more of a gift to yourself than anyone else.  I guess that also depends on how you make an offering too.  And what type of thing is offered.

Meh, what I do is what I do.  It is simply my way.  If everyone else did things the same way as I do, things would get boring very quickly. 
Logged

What you think is possible.  Anything that is possible can become real.  Therefore, reality is a state of mind.
My Writings So Far
Entwife
Master Member
****
Last Login:February 24, 2015, 06:57:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: Pagan (Ecclectic? Green? Something along those lines)
Posts: 520


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8: September 05, 2008, 09:16:15 am »

Do you make offerings? 

Who do you make them to?  (Deities/Spirits/Creatures/Ancestors/Locations Etc.) 

Are there specific rules about how you make offerings (timing/location/presentation) or what you offer?

Are your offerings only pleasing to the recipient, or are they also appealing to you?

Would you offer something that did not appeal to you if asked?

Do you ever make offerings of meat?

Would you ever (or do you) engage in animal sacrifice?

Do you see a difference between offering purchased meat and animal sacrifice?

Can an offering be considered ethically "wrong" if the offerant believes it is what their Gods want?

I make offerings of tobacco, which does not appeal personally to this reformed smoker, pretty much everyday. This offering is given to Creator, the Spirits, All My Relations from Ant to the Star Nation to each of my loved ones. There are no specific rules and I make these offerings whenever I feel moved to do so, but pretty regularly at sunset each day. Offerings of meat? Hmm, well sort of... every time I eat, a little bit of everything I'm going to eat goes on my Spirit plate, or to the side of my own plate if I'm out somewhere, and then I invite them to eat with me. Animal sacrifice as in me taking a living animal and taking it's life in ceremony isn't really necessary in these modern times from my point of view. If it were necessary for me to harvest my meals in a more immediate way, then it would definitely become more ceremonial. I have participated in a ritual in which a bison was sacrificed and shared in meals with the People... I can certainly say it has been a binding and lasting experience, but on a day to day basis, it can be just as meaningful for me to simply share whatever I have. Can a sacrifice be wrong even if the offerant believes it is what is desired? Absolutely. Belief alone doesn't make something inherently wrong suddenly acceptable. Thanks for the interesting questions! Wishing you laughter
Logged

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." ~ Voltaire
Entwife
Master Member
****
Last Login:February 24, 2015, 06:57:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: Pagan (Ecclectic? Green? Something along those lines)
Posts: 520


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9: September 05, 2008, 09:25:11 am »

There are no specific rules and I make these offerings whenever I feel moved to do so, but pretty regularly at sunset each day.

Tobacco and food are not the only things I offer, just the most regular. Other things I have offered over time... crafted items, flowers, water, breath, tears, personal energy or time, specific activities like cleaning up a littered area.
Logged

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." ~ Voltaire
BGMarc
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 17, 2011, 09:57:32 pm
Australia Australia

Religion: Stoic (with declining druidic/wiccish hangovers and emergent Hellenic/Kemetic affiliations)
Posts: 1525


Blog entries (0)

Marc Larkin 6marc9
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #10: September 05, 2008, 12:13:20 pm »

Any god asking me to perform human sacrifice can go find another worshiper, frankly.

Would you consider offering your kills to a god if you were a professional soldier?
Logged

"If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered" Robin Tyler

It's the saddest thing in the world when you can only feel big by making others feel small. - UPG

Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. The sentence is death. There is no appeal and sentence is carried out automatically and without pity. Lazarus Long.

BGMarc at the Pub
BGMarc
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 17, 2011, 09:57:32 pm
Australia Australia

Religion: Stoic (with declining druidic/wiccish hangovers and emergent Hellenic/Kemetic affiliations)
Posts: 1525


Blog entries (0)

Marc Larkin 6marc9
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11: September 05, 2008, 12:19:24 pm »

See, I see offerings and sacrifice as different things...  Sacrifices I do see as more about a show of devotion by means of giving up something--"see, I have this thing and I need/want it myself, but I'm willing to give it to you because you mean that much to me". 

I absolutely agree with the nature of what makes a suitable sacrifice, but for me it is an act of trust, rather than a show of devotion--"see, I have this thing and I need/want it myself, but I'm willing to give it to you because it's what you require of me and I trust you that the best will come of this".
Logged

"If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered" Robin Tyler

It's the saddest thing in the world when you can only feel big by making others feel small. - UPG

Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. The sentence is death. There is no appeal and sentence is carried out automatically and without pity. Lazarus Long.

BGMarc at the Pub
Star
Message Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:January 12, 2013, 08:36:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Reconstructionist
TCN ID: star
Posts: 9033


Etcetera, Whatever

Blog entries (0)

ilaynay starcr
WWW
« Reply #12: September 05, 2008, 01:21:24 pm »

Would you consider offering your kills to a god if you were a professional soldier?

Moot point; I cannot conceive of any circumstance which would require me to make this decision, because a professional soldier is not something I see myself ever being.  (I respect those who are career soldiers, but it's not the life for me.)
Logged

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced."
-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.
Nehet
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 02, 2011, 12:07:16 am
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Polytheist
TCN ID: Nehet
Posts: 1479

Gravatar

Now 20% Cooler

Blog entries (11)

burning_tree
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #13: September 05, 2008, 03:58:30 pm »

Would you consider offering your kills to a god if you were a professional soldier?


Let's just say that I could see myself as a soldier.  And let's just say that my country was fighting a war for what I would consider honorable reasons.  And let's just say that I followed some kind of war god.  None of the above are true. I'll admit to being a bit of a hippie, so take this for what it's worth. 

I would never offer up my "kills" to any of my gods.  I'm sure the people who I would have to kill would have their own religious beliefs.  It seems very wrong to offer them up to gods who they don't even believe in.  If I ever did have to kill anyone to defend myself, my country or anyone I loved, I'd still feel like it would be important to respect the dead, and their wishes.  Even if they were an axe murderer, who am I to know who they are or what their life has been like?  And they're dead.  They can't hurt me anymore.  What good does it do me to do something disrespectful to them, after the fact? 

There are a few things in this world that I, myself, would die for.  If I die trying to save someone or standing up for something that's important to me, then I suppose that's the only human sacrifice I would ever make.  It's my life, and my death.  I can live or die with whatever intention I want. 

I don't really separate sacrifices that I make for others and sacrifices that I'd make for the gods.  I had a dream recently where I was making dinner for everyone at camp, at Burning Man, and that this was the same as making offerings of food to the gods.  That seems to make sense since offerings to the gods, in many cultures, are re-distributed and consumed by people anyway. 

I make formal offerings to the gods but I also try to honor the random little nice things that I do for people as also being sacred work.  Sacrifices can mean anything from dying a heroic death to giving up a few minutes of my time to help someone with something when I'd rather be playing video games.  It's good to remember these things on days when I don't have the time to do anything more formal. 

I just realized that I could write a really long thing about Burning Man itself, and making sacrifices...(the Man, the Temple, etc.) but now my lunch break is over and I've got to get back to work. 
Logged
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 17, 2019, 11:13:29 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #14: September 05, 2008, 04:42:57 pm »

Would you consider offering your kills to a god if you were a professional soldier?

I doubt Athena would want that. If I were a follower of Ares, however, I could see doing something like that.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.064 seconds with 49 queries.