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Author Topic: Fictional Characters in Religion and Magic.  (Read 30082 times)
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« Reply #30: September 05, 2008, 02:10:44 am »

Not treekisser, but I would imagine personifications would be somewhat like Gaiman's Endless.  Dream, and the like.  Rather than having a character or god(dess) of wisdom, you have an archetypal persona you have created for yourself.

I'm primarily curious about how the concepts are embodied.  Physically, energetically, visually, by name?
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« Reply #31: September 05, 2008, 02:16:14 am »

Many people believe that there are no other gods but one and that these archtypes are a way to focus the energy style so to speak that they need specifically, why not glinda from the wizard of oz?  this character is pure fiction but none the less a major staple in many people's lives and takes on a life of it's own to those that idealize/idolize her.  now wicked witch, that's a-whole-nother level, we know how much she has influenced the world.  and dorothy, the witch who wasn't.

"Dorothy the witch who wasn't", that's fascinating.  She was very witchy in some ways.  You could almost see the whole adventure as a sort of shamanic journey.  (Yes I know it was actually political commentary.)
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« Reply #32: September 05, 2008, 02:23:22 am »

Pop culture it may be, but that encompasses a large part of the *world*.  And maybe *world* was not the best word to describe my conceptual point that there are many people out there who relate to that character, maybe or maybe not the evil, but the angst and hate, and I've met a few.  I've also met a few too many Glinda as fluffy bunny numero uno who feel as if the world is one yellow brick road.  I personally am somewhere in between, but that doesn't make it any less relevant.  And besides it's just one example.  I've also met World of Warcraft players (and old school D&D) who relate thier online persona to real life.  And these people aren't stereotypes sitting at home delusional afraid of the real world.  These are working folks who feel these characters mirror themselves.  They still have jobs and lives and children, but a thousand years from now,(my original point) people may find WoW or D&D paraphanelia and assume erroniously that these were gods to us.  And why couldn't they be.  Not all of the world believes the greek pantheon really existed as living breathing powerful beings.  Nor does all the world believe Ganesh was an actual elephant.  The point is there is no proof of these ancient ones, so who's to say that in the future, the evidence won't point to two opposing goddesses, and the rogue who killed the one with magickal slippers.

On a side note, D&D characters can be powerful invocations.  Create a character that embodies personality traits you would like to exhibit, or skills you wish to master, and then throw yourself into acting the part.  You can even use the character's name as a trigger word to turn on the ideal personality during appropriate interpersonal situations. 
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« Reply #33: September 05, 2008, 05:34:47 am »

I'm primarily curious about how the concepts are embodied.  Physically, energetically, visually, by name?

Primarily name, some visualization, and I may incorporate a physical element. Basically it's a thought form.
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« Reply #34: September 07, 2008, 02:35:24 am »

Primarily name, some visualization, and I may incorporate a physical element. Basically it's a thought form.

Would you consider the thoughtform an access point to a higher reality, or would you say it has power in and of itself?
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« Reply #35: September 07, 2008, 04:50:21 am »

Would you consider the thoughtform an access point to a higher reality, or would you say it has power in and of itself?

Mmmm. The former, really, but the latter will probably develop as some sort of personality.

Probably be best if I give an example -- one concept/energy I've worked for a while with is roughly vitality, a lust for life, the life-affirming power of desire, and I usually label the abstract essence something like Desire or Lust or Life (let's call it DLL for short). In a sense I believe this abstract essence exists independently, and I also believe there are 'echoes' in my subconscious.

That's where the thoughtform comes in. I think of a being that, to me, embodies DLL, but equally importantly reflects me and how that DLL manifests in me. Since I'm into words, visualization is less important to me than naming the thoughtform.

And this is the part relating to your question: I treat the thoughtform as a conduit between DLL the abstract essence and DLL in everyday life. Just like you have those things in between the electric generator and home power socket to amplify or (erm, what's the opposite of amplify?) voltage and all that.

That I personally feel is the simple bit. But I'm pretty sure that anything personified will eventually get, you know, a personality, though unless I write some 'myths' the personality probably won't be anything more than what you'd ascribe to a cranky computer. And at the same time I can't shake the feeling that DLL the abstraction, the thoughtform, and DLL in me, are all the same thing.

Or the feeling that this is all very elaborate gibberish to enhance role-playing.  Wink


P.S. I used to refer to DLL as Eros, and I think at that time the relationship was more like a typical supplicant-deity one because Eros had his own Greek and Freudian associations which included nothing of mine. Eros provided access to DLL, yes, but there was a distinct sense of separate selves, whereas including myself in the process makes everything feel...tighter. 'Conjoined'...

P.P.S. Comparatively speaking, what I'm doing probably falls under or at least mimics invocation.
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« Reply #36: September 07, 2008, 10:44:13 am »

On a side note, D&D characters can be powerful invocations.  Create a character that embodies personality traits you would like to exhibit, or skills you wish to master, and then throw yourself into acting the part.  You can even use the character's name as a trigger word to turn on the ideal personality during appropriate interpersonal situations. 
Many musicians use this concept, a sort of alter ego, in order to project their onstage persona.  And actually plenty of them do it with no magickal intention, but clearly are using the same energies and ideas, they are just categorizing it as mundane psychological techniques.  But visualization used to be considered a magickal practice, and now it is common place in therapy and psychiatry.

A basic spell form I learned young was to chose an animal and invoke it's essence in order to gain it's personality benefits.  One of my favorites was a lion, for it's ability to not back down from a confrontation, still remain correct and noble and calm, yet relay an effect/feeling of ferociousness if my opposition decided to escalate the situation.  It worked quite well, actually.  I have always been small, I'm only 5'2" as an adult, and all my life people have said they've been afraid of me, or afraid of what I would do.  And yet, I have always been a very reserved calm person, not easily angered.  I attribute this directly to this practice.  One could embody any personality from a lion, to a deity, to a WoW character, to an inanimate object.  Make yourself invisible in a room full of people by invoking the essence of a lamp or a table.  hahaha.  That would be awesome.
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« Reply #37: September 07, 2008, 11:17:35 am »

"Dorothy the witch who wasn't", that's fascinating.  She was very witchy in some ways.  You could almost see the whole adventure as a sort of shamanic journey.  (Yes I know it was actually political commentary.)
If you look at it one way, the story could describes a young natural witch who has yet to discover witchcraft really exists.  They bumble around disturbing energies, accidentally doing magickal acts, messing them up, but end up doing powerful things and changing people's lives.  Of course witches aren't the only ones who do this, but it seems to be the cliche that all witches I've met go through before they truly discover the craft.  Like making your stereo/tv/computer come on or turn off from accross the room.  How about watches breaking or stopping.  I've heard a few accounts on this forum alone about those who can't wear watches because they always mysteriously break or stop.  This happens to me, I just gave up, and don't wear one.

When I was not even a teen, I was listening at the wall when I heard my parents yelling.  I had heard them yell before, but this was particularly bothersome.  I kept saying to myself I don't wanna hear this.  And I went deaf in my left ear, the one that was against the wall.  The doctor thought it was wax, they did something to my ear, and that wasn't it.  It cleared up after a few days. 

My close friend who is also a witch and I , used to make the lights flicker/turn on and off.  One day, another friend and I were sitting at a bench on a path.  She was telling me how it was creepy that I could do that.  I was getting so frustrated by others making fun of us.  I became so adamant that it wasn't true, that I stood up, yelling, and outstretched my arms, and at that moment, all the pathway lights came on, starting at me, and then one at a time, all the way to the end.  At that point I stopped arguing with people and embraced it.
My dad told me it was because my energy was all over the road, and that like electricity, it needs to be grounded or directed.

So Dorothy accidentally kills someone, much worse than what happened to me.  But she also saved munchkins, which is very cool.
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« Reply #38: September 10, 2008, 02:35:47 am »

Thank you.  That was very informative. 
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« Reply #39: September 14, 2008, 05:44:28 pm »

Well, you're talking to someone who thinks Jungian archetypes are bullshit nothing more than pop psychology that shouldn't be taken seriously Wink

Now I remember why I love Melamphoros...
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« Reply #40: September 19, 2008, 06:34:17 pm »

Have you ever worked with a fictional character?  If so, who and how?

I haven't worked with anything fictional religiously, but I have done magic based on it.  Last Samhain I adapted an exercise from Evolutionary Witchcraft and an image from C.J. Cherryh's Fortress series and walked the blade between Truth and Illusion.  As part of the ritual, I read the appropriate bit of one of the books.
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« Reply #41: November 17, 2008, 11:23:49 pm »

There seems to be some connection between religion and storytelling.  Many of histories greatest stories tell about deities and their (mis)adventures.  Is it so strange then that characters from stories could become religious figures?  If the experience feels real does it matter that the entity with whom you interact (supposedly) isn't?  How do you feel about the idea of a whole religion based on such a fiction?  Have you ever worked with a fictional character?  If so, who and how?
DISCLAIMER:  This is likely to be pretty disjointed as I'm still examining this while issue.  On top of that, this is all just my personal experience and falls strictly into the category of UPG.  Also be aware that I'm agnostic on whether any entity, whether fictional or a convential deity has any existence outside my own head.

Yes, would be the quick answer.  It's pretty much exclusively what I experimented with when I started.  I've worked with everyone from The Fonz to Slaanesh (from the Warhammer FRP) to Ziggy Stardust to The Bash Street Kids.

And it does give you results, I found, as long as you approach it with some level of committment.  Nothing I could prove as such, but a definite achievement as far as I'm concerned.

One way of looking at it is that, while fictional characters were originally created by a single person, over time, they become imbued with the meaning and themes placed on them by their audience.  Because they've had longer to develop, you can often see this more clearly with older works.  Romeo and Juliet are the star crossed lovers.  Don Quixote is the questing knight, to the point where we now recognise the term "quixotic" as a word.  And Robin Hood is even more complicated.  His themes have changed over time again and again, to reflect the society he's in and their needs.  He's also heavily tied up with the mythical concept of the "Norman Yoke" which has had a demonstrable effect on real history- it was a major influence on the theology and politics of the radical fringe in the English Civil War.  Obviously, Robin has developed organically, but the first two examples were originally the work of a single author.  But I'd argue they've transcended that, and become common property instead, with all that entails.  (The opposite is also sometimes true.  The common perception of King Arthur is now Mallory's Arthur specifically).  So to an extent I'd agree with Melamphorus.  I don't think the Jungian archetypes are that useful.  Instead, I'd see fictional characters as artistic motifs, that speak to us both communally and individually, but with our role as an audience playing a crucial role.

So that would be my defense of the use of fictional characters.  However, as time has gone on, I've had several issues and doubts arise, at least with how this is normally practised.

The first would be that, more and more, I was finding working with fictional characters somewhat superficial.  And times, that's fine, because it's all that I want.  But it was feeling like I was working always on the surface, if that makes sense?  I have several possible theories of why that could be (and that's all these are).  The first possibility is that it's to do with my own personality.  Part of the issue may be that I could never work with someone like The Fonz and suspend disbelief entirely.  A part of me was always conscious that I was working with a popular culture figure.  On top of that, I've not got the integral connection with any modern media format to really throw myself in entirely.  If someone was on the most fanatical wing of the Trekkers, I'm willing to accept that might not be an issue for them when working with Kirk.  The other one I've come up with is that, while people have put their own meanings onto modern fictional characters, not enough time has passed for that to have mutated significantly, so it's possible I'm still working with underdeveloped entities.  (Again, arguably, that could be different for other people.  And the two could combine.  I have no interest in Princess Diana, but undoubtably a lot of people do see her in a different way).  To repeat, this is currently strictly theoretical, with no conclusion.

I've used the term "popular culture" there for a reason.  I haven't found I have the same issues with the more mythological figures I've worked with.  Specifically, I still work with Robin Hood reasonably frequently, though less then I used to.  (Mostly because I'm a bit burnt out from political activism which was my main focus with the Loxley lads work).  But that's a connection I have had for as long as I remember- as a very young child I desperately wanted to be Robin Hood.  Or at least one of his Merry Men.

The second issue I have with it is that, while this isn't necessary, it seems to go hand in hand with an approach that says that entities all fit the Jungian archetype system, and are interchangable within that.  If anything, I am becoming more dubious to that then the issue of fictional entities as a whole.  Again, it's only my personal feelings.  But I've worked with both Rob and with Captain Mission (possibly mythical 1600's pirate captain  Was said to have liberated slaves and to have founded a direct democracy pirate colony called Libertatia).  Now, it would seem that not only would they both obviously fit the rebel archetype, but they're actually pretty similar in themes.  All I know is that they felt totally different to work with then each other.

The third issue is that I've seen it lead to people not considering the character of the fictional characters in full.  To take one example, guy I know was planning to work with Cartman as a trickster deity.  Now, thing with Eric Cartman is that he's not some loveable Bart Simpson character.  A kid angered him.  So he murdered his family and then fed them to the kid.  Now, if you're 100% sure that you're working solely within your own head, with archetypes, that doesn't matter.  However, if you have even a 0.01% doubt that there's a possibility you could be working with external forces, that strikes me as bloody stupid to risk.

So that's my experience so far.  I hope it's been of some interest.  To be clear, I do still work with pop culture entities sometimes, but generally when I'm wanting to do something low powered and simple.  If you're nervy about a promising first date, The Fonz is a very worthwhile icon to work with.  I'm just saying that, more and more, chaos magic seems to have got its own set of unspoken assumptions, that very few people challenge.  And this topic is rife with them.  If you decide that's what you believe, that's completely cool.  But I think it's worth examining them consciously.
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« Reply #42: November 18, 2008, 05:23:58 am »

The third issue is that I've seen it lead to people not considering the character of the fictional characters in full.  To take one example, guy I know was planning to work with Cartman as a trickster deity.  Now, thing with Eric Cartman is that he's not some loveable Bart Simpson character.  A kid angered him.  So he murdered his family and then fed them to the kid.  Now, if you're 100% sure that you're working solely within your own head, with archetypes, that doesn't matter.  However, if you have even a 0.01% doubt that there's a possibility you could be working with external forces, that strikes me as bloody stupid to risk.

I will say, though, I think that's generally a risk you run if you're working with actual trickster deities, too.  (I'm actually wondering if Cartman might be closer to the sense of a trickster than Bart; they're not exactly known for being cute and lovable either.)  I don't think, therefore, that this is a danger specific to dealing with fictional characters.  I would also not necessarily assume (based on the information given; you may know better yourself, I don't know) that the guy talking about working with Cartman-as-trickster wasn't considering the whole entity.  People do work with tricksters, danger and all; not everyone necessarily considers "this entity did some really nasty stuff" as a reason to shy away from working with said entity.  I don't think that's so much stupidity (necessarily, although it can be), just a different idea of what sort of risk they're willing to take to achieve their goal.
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« Reply #43: November 20, 2008, 09:16:17 pm »

I will say, though, I think that's generally a risk you run if you're working with actual trickster deities, too.  (I'm actually wondering if Cartman might be closer to the sense of a trickster than Bart; they're not exactly known for being cute and lovable either.)  I don't think, therefore, that this is a danger specific to dealing with fictional characters.  I would also not necessarily assume (based on the information given; you may know better yourself, I don't know) that the guy talking about working with Cartman-as-trickster wasn't considering the whole entity.  People do work with tricksters, danger and all; not everyone necessarily considers "this entity did some really nasty stuff" as a reason to shy away from working with said entity.  I don't think that's so much stupidity (necessarily, although it can be), just a different idea of what sort of risk they're willing to take to achieve their goal.

That's a very interesting point I think.  As you seem to have picked up, part of the issue here is that I'm not overly keen on the magican in question on a personal level.  Which I accept is going to heavily cloud my judgement here.  That said, I suspect it's more productive to try and put that to one side and examine the issue on a more general level.

I think you're absolutely right that's a risk you run working with trickster deities fullstop.  Even at their most benevolent, tricksters aren't in any way "safe".  I think that the issue about not thinking things through is actually one that applies to some people who work with classical tricksters as well.  I'm absolutely not saying that's true across the board.  But tricksters do seem to attract a segment of occultists who very much like the image of working with tricksters, and have that as their primary motive.  I think, to that segment, tricksters are sometimes seen as simply "cool" to work with, without much more thought then that.

Chaos magic (or more specifically chaos magicans) would seem to run the risk of that issue for several reasons.  Firstly, quite honestly, chaos magic has always attracted more then it's fair share of the kind of people who wear sunglasses in nightclubs.  I have those kind of "wannabe rock star" tendencies myself, which I try to at least keep an awareness of.  And those kind of people are going to be more prone to doing stuff because, at least partly, because it seems a bit 'dangerous'.  The second factor is the whole 'kid in a sweet shop' tendency.  When people first start working with pop culture icons, especially if they're getting results, it feels very exciting and novel.  And that's when people start running round trying to shoehorn any pop culture figure they have a fondess for into a working, without necessarily thinking about it deeply.  I certainly did.  On the other hand, that is so common, that I suspect it may be a necessary 'rite of passage' in pop culture work, at least for many people.

On Cartman specifically, I'm not actually sure he's that close to the sense of a trickster in the first place.  Even at their most dangerous/amoral, tricksters seem to me to be transgressive.  And tricksters cause change, for better or worse.  I don't think Cartman fufils that role- actually, he's very stagnant.  So, without that, you have a figure who's essential essence is the fact that he's a sociopath.

But yes, I take your point on there being perfectly valid reasons to work with 'darker' entities.  I didn't mean to give on the impression that I thought that was always a bad or stupid idea, though I can see why it came across like that.  I merely think that people should be a bit cautious and think carefully before doing so.
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« Reply #44: December 14, 2008, 02:30:01 am »

DISCLAIMER:  This is likely to be pretty disjointed as I'm still examining this while issue.  On top of that, this is all just my personal experience and falls strictly into the category of UPG.  Also be aware that I'm agnostic on whether any entity, whether fictional or a convential deity has any existence outside my own head.

Yes, would be the quick answer.  It's pretty much exclusively what I experimented with when I started.  I've worked with everyone from The Fonz to Slaanesh (from the Warhammer FRP) to Ziggy Stardust to The Bash Street Kids.


Can I ask why you chose to work with Slaanesh (for however long)? I know a bit about him and he's. Well he's something.
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