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Author Topic: DISCUSSION: Server Issues and The Future of the TC Message Board  (Read 20341 times)
Star
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« Reply #15: September 16, 2008, 05:48:49 am »

I do agree with Rose, though, that we should try to keep the board accessible to those with limited incomes -- especially teens who might be unable to contribute for a variety of reasons.

I agree very strongly on that point, and I've got an objection from a staff POV as well.  Probably 95-99% of posters, from a moderation standpoint, that would be fine, no problem.  However, there's always that small percentage who make trouble in various degrees.  Right now, for the most part we are free to impose whatever consequences we feel are necessary--warnings, gags, stripping Full Membership, bans, etc.  When you add money into that equation, though, things get a little stickier.  Sure, we can just put a clause in that says payments are final and by using the board you are accepting these terms or whatever, but now we're dealing with actual real-world consequences rather than consequences internal to the board...  I don't know that I'm fond of the idea of dealing with that.  I don't want to feel obligated to go easy on someone who's making a lot of trouble just because they've paid to be here.

I would far rather see those who are saying they'd be willing to pay an annual membership fee just go ahead and donate that amount on their own than make it a required thing for everyone.  Wink

I'm with a lot of other people:  If absolutely necessary, the zero-cost option is better than nothing.  I'll have to take a closer look at the other options and see what I think when I'm a little more awake, though.
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« Reply #16: September 16, 2008, 07:47:49 am »


Thoughts - I know I've got more in my dreamhost account than I could ever use.  Is it possible to split a few things off of the *main* board and put, say, the mux under my account, and flashchat under someone else's account, etc?  Is that reasonable?
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« Reply #17: September 16, 2008, 07:49:28 am »

Thoughts - I know I've got more in my dreamhost account than I could ever use.  Is it possible to split a few things off of the *main* board and put, say, the mux under my account, and flashchat under someone else's account, etc?  Is that reasonable?

Mr. Star has offered use of some of our Dreamhost space as well, if it's needed.  We have way more than we use, too.
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« Reply #18: September 16, 2008, 08:20:28 am »

OK, here goes.

ZERO ADDITIONAL COST OPTION: Shut down the message board completely. We would lose all posts on this board and those on both the 2005 and 2006 archive boards (the old Beehive boards), the flashchat, and CauldronMux. The Web site would remain. We would replace this board with a new message board on a free message board hosting service. We would use SMFForFree, currently used for our backup board. If you've used the backup board you know it is functional but (at times) very slow and not as nearly as customized as what we have here.  ADDITIONAL ANNUAL COST: $0

As said, workable.  Not ideal by any means, but better than nothing.

Quote
LOW ADDITIONAL COST OPTION: Some people have been successful at running boards about our size on a separate account just for the board at Dreamhost. This would be an additional $120 or so a year. If we used too many resources, Dreamhost would want us to leave (meaning move to one of the Medium or High cost options or revert to the zero-cost option) or switch to their pricey "Private Servers" options (a weird combination of shared hosting and a Virtual Private Server without most of the advantages of a VPS but with all the cost). However, if it works it would be relatively cheap. We would be able to keep the messages from this board as we would just be moving it. We would lose the messages from the two old Beehive boards as they are so cpu-intensive that no shared hosting plan could run them. (They are too slow to be usable on Bob's server!) Flashchat would probably not be doable as it uses quite a bit of CPU as well. The Mux would also be gone. ADDITIONAL ANNUAL COST: $120-150

My main question about this one (and the two following) is:  What happens if we do use too many resources?  I mean, obviously we have to move, but are there penalty fees to be paid?  How quickly would we have to move?  Is it feasible to approach this one on a "try it and see if it works" basis?

If yes to that last one, I think this is my runner-up option, personally.  Losing the Beehive boards isn't great, but it sounds like the only way to keep them is to go the highest-cost route anyway.  If it happens, it happens.  I like being able to keep everything we've got here and not add too much extra cost.  I don't particularly like losing both FlashChat and the MUX, though.  I don't use them much myself, but I know they're important features to many of our members.

Quote
LOW-MEDIUM ADDITIONAL COST OPTION-1: As the Low Additional Cost Option, except rent space on a MU* Host for CauldronMUX (usual $12 a month or so). Translation: This would add CauldronMUX to the Low Additional cost Option. ADDITIONAL ANNUAL COST: $240-280

LOW-MEDIUM ADDITIONAL COST OPTION-2: As the Low Additional Cost Option, except rent a chat service from a chat host. Translation: This would add something like Flashchat to the Low Additional Cost Option. ADDITIONAL ANNUAL COST: $240-280.

These two are my favorite at the moment.  It (in theory) allows us to keep most of what we have now without too much extra cost.  Unfortunately we'll have to lose one chat system or the other, but compared to what we could be losing with other options it seems like it could be a lot worse.  It's some extra money, but not so much that I don't think we can do it, and keep doing it.  As for which one, I think that's a question for the membership:  If you have to chose, which is more important to you, the MUX or FlashChat?  (My private suspicion is that the MUX will win, but I may be wrong.)

So that we're comparing apples to apples, though:  You list this as "additional" annual cost, whereas with the medium and high it's total/estimated annual cost.  What is the total annual cost for these options, then?  (That is, what's the bill right now that this would be added to?)

Quote
MEDIUM COST OPTION: Get a good XEN-based Virtual Private Server from Linode.com or other very good reputation VPS host. This should be able to run the web site (it would move from Dreamhost when our Dreamhost contract is up in January), this board, flashchat, and the MUX with no problem. It probably would not be able to run the old Beehive Boards as they are just too CPU-intensive -- but we would probably at least try them). The cost would vary between $40 and $80 a month depending on what level of VPS we end up needing, with the $60/month option or $80/month option being most likely. TOTAL ANNUAL COST: $720 or $960 ($480 possible but pretty unlikely).

HIGH COST OPTION: Get a dedicated server from a mid-level (decent but not over-priced) host. This should run everything including old Beehive boards without problems. Cost Per Month would range from $90 to ungodly amounts. A ball-park estimate is $130/month plus a setup fee of $100+. ESTIMATED ANNUAL COST: $1560 plus $100-200 setup fee to start with.

These two both sound really great, but the cost makes me nervous, especially on the higher-cost one.  I hope no one will think that I'm doubting the membership here; I have no doubt that people would chip in to support a community that's important to them.  However, I also know we have many people on limited incomes, or whose income might not qualify as "limited" strictly speaking but whose other financial obligations are such that giving money is still going to be difficult.  I suspect that while we might manage $240-280 without too much trouble, $720 and up is not going to be feasible to raise consistently year after year.
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« Reply #19: September 16, 2008, 08:24:23 am »

Thoughts - I know I've got more in my dreamhost account than I could ever use.  Is it possible to split a few things off of the *main* board and put, say, the mux under my account, and flashchat under someone else's account, etc?  Is that reasonable?

It's not space or bandwidth that is the problem -- our current Dreamhost account has more of that than anyone not hosting porn or game downloads could every need. The problem is a third resource needed to run interactive sites; CPU time -- something shared hosts do not talk about except in cryptic semi-legalese in their terms of service and/or acceptable use policies. If you read any shared hosts' TOS/AUP you will find statements similar to this one in Dreamhost's TOS:

Quote
Servers are shared with other customers, and as such IRC-related activities or severely CPU intensive CGI scripts (e.g. chat scripts, scripts which have bugs causing them to not close properly after being run, etc.) are not encouraged. Any application that listens for inbound network connections (even if the application would otherwise be allowed) are not permitted. BitTorrent clients, proxy servers/scripts, IRC bots and bouncers (BNC) specifically may not be run on any DreamHost Web Hosting server. If your processes are adversely affecting server performance disproportionately DreamHost Web Hosting reserves the right to negotiate additional charges with the Customer and/or the discontinuation of the offending processes.

A active, large message board becomes a CPU-intensive script very quickly. Even SMF which tries hard to be CPU-friendly. Shared hosts also do not allow things like a MUX to be ran in a shared host. Even a very active Wordpress Blog can overload a shared host by taking so much CPU time that other web sites sharing the server cannot get their fair share of CPU time.  Dreamhost is more flexible than others with regard to CPU time, but they can't let one account negatively impact the other 200 on the server.

Translation: donating space from your Dreamhost account would not really help -- unfortunately. Not id you have a powerful dedicated server somewhere that has lots of extra CPU capacity and are willing to set us up with an account on it, that is a completely different story, but I doubt many members are shelling out $150-$300 a month for that (and not using the power for their own web sites).
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« Reply #20: September 16, 2008, 08:29:19 am »

Translation: donating space from your Dreamhost account would not really help -- unfortunately. Not id you have a powerful dedicated server somewhere that has lots of extra CPU capacity and are willing to set us up with an account on it, that is a completely different story, but I doubt many members are shelling out $150-$300 a month for that (and not using the power for their own web sites).

let me talk to my husband about this. Wink

We might need to do a one-time cost fundraiser - but the rest of it might be coverable.  I'm not sure.
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« Reply #21: September 16, 2008, 08:34:18 am »

Or since those boards are read-only anyway, couldn't we simply use something like google docs, and transfer all of them over there somehow?  Then make it accessible, but not editable...

I'm kind of doubting it, because those messages aren't just sitting around in a bunch of text documents or spreadsheets or something.  They're stored in a database, I'm guessing a pretty hefty one.  I haven't looked into Google docs that much, so I may be wrong, but I doubt that it's really set up to handle that kind of thing.

The other problem with just copying off the database is that it's kind of meaningless without some way of interpreting the data.  If it's just going to sit there without being accessed, we might as well just dump it.  And if we add the software back in, well, we're back where we started from.
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« Reply #22: September 16, 2008, 08:44:35 am »

I agree very strongly on that point, and I've got an objection from a staff POV as well.  Probably 95-99% of posters, from a moderation standpoint, that would be fine, no problem.  However, there's always that small percentage who make trouble in various degrees.

We will not do annual memberships for that very reason. We might give special membership classes for donations (as we do now to a limited extent) or some time of paid monthly subscription membership where the most we would have to bend over to tolerate an annoying paid member would be 30 days.
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« Reply #23: September 16, 2008, 08:48:50 am »

We might need to do a one-time cost fundraiser - but the rest of it might be coverable.  I'm not sure.

The problem is that the costs recur every year for bandwidth and colocation fees even if you own the server. And then there are the repairs it will eventually need (and generally without notice). Bob was already used to that. Someone just getting a big box (and you need one designed to be a server, not a cheaper desktop box) for a server is not.  I'm not trying to throw cold water on this idea (which is a good one), just trying to point out things you need to think of.
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« Reply #24: September 16, 2008, 08:51:28 am »

I'm kind of doubting it, because those messages aren't just sitting around in a bunch of text documents or spreadsheets or something.  They're stored in a database, I'm guessing a pretty hefty one.  I haven't looked into Google docs that much, so I may be wrong, but I doubt that it's really set up to handle that kind of thing.

It can't. Someione would have to write a program to take the data out of the database, format it in some useful way for human reading and spit it out. That would be a LOT of work for very little gain -- especially as the db is not well-documented.
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« Reply #25: September 16, 2008, 09:00:51 am »

My main question about this one (and the two following) is:  What happens if we do use too many resources?  I mean, obviously we have to move, but are there penalty fees to be paid?  How quickly would we have to move?  Is it feasible to approach this one on a "try it and see if it works" basis?

I'm going to use the fact that one of the owners of Dreamhost and I occasionally talk in email to ask if he'd have someone at Dreamhost look at our current setup and see if Dreamhost could handle it on a shared server or what the cost would be for the Private Server setup needed for it. This should get us the data we need.

Quote
So that we're comparing apples to apples, though:  You list this as "additional" annual cost, whereas with the medium and high it's total/estimated annual cost.  What is the total annual cost for these options, then?  (That is, what's the bill right now that this would be added to?)

Our current costs are just over $200 a year. The options listed "TOTAL ANNUAL COST" would replace this cost, not add to it.

Quote
These two both sound really great, but the cost makes me nervous, especially on the higher-cost one.  I hope no one will think that I'm doubting the membership here; I have no doubt that people would chip in to support a community that's important to them. 

A lot of boards our size do it. We would probably be paying monthly so the money would not all have to be there in a lump sum. We'd raise enough to cover 3 or 4 months, then start immediately to raise money for the next month. This would give us a slight cushion if we were short one month down the line. We'd set up some type of automated donation system that would tell everyone how much we still need for the month.
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« Reply #26: September 16, 2008, 09:02:55 am »

The problem is that the costs recur every year for bandwidth and colocation fees even if you own the server. And then there are the repairs it will eventually need (and generally without notice). Bob was already used to that. Someone just getting a big box (and you need one designed to be a server, not a cheaper desktop box) for a server is not.  I'm not trying to throw cold water on this idea (which is a good one), just trying to point out things you need to think of.

That I know - my husband already runs servers for the university.  And he's already cleared, in advance, the right to use Uni bandwidth as long as it's for an "educational purpose" - which TC can qualify for, given that we're educating about religious stuff. Cheesy

So it really DOES come down to just needing a box - and he already knows the people to contact and stuff to GET a box.  That, and writing up the usage nice and pretty so that it fits Uni requirements, just to stay on the sunny side of the rules there.
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« Reply #27: September 16, 2008, 09:08:11 am »

So it really DOES come down to just needing a box - and he already knows the people to contact and stuff to GET a box.  That, and writing up the usage nice and pretty so that it fits Uni requirements, just to stay on the sunny side of the rules there.

Okay.  Sounds like something we should discuss in the staff area.
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« Reply #28: September 16, 2008, 04:21:11 pm »

I do agree with Rose, though, that we should try to keep the board accessible to those with limited incomes -- especially teens who might be unable to contribute for a variety of reasons.

As a teen (admittedly one in a somewhat unusual position) I would be willing to squidge in some overtime at my job in order to be able to keep TC. That said, I really can't give much and some months I might not be able to give any. Minimum wage may be wonderful in Massachusetts compared to the rest of the country, but it's still only just about enough to cover everything. Other teens will almost certainly have different situations (teens who are living at home for example) so I cannot pretend to speak for all of us. I just want to say I would be willing to donate.
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« Reply #29: September 16, 2008, 08:52:35 pm »

I'm going to give a lot of options -- even some that are unlikely to work well (unless we are very lucky). They will be arranged from least expensive to most expensive.
About the only thing I have to say, at least at this point, about the various options you came up with is, I'm personally more distressed at the thought of losing the archives, than at the thought of losing either or both chat options.  I mention this just as "how do the Cauldronites feel?" info, since archive retention appears to be the most difficult thing to pull off, and dropping chat doesn't seem to get us any closer to supporting the archives.

Quote
If nothing else, this should give everyone an appreciation of what Bob has been giving us the last 4.5 years.
I think we owe Bob a LOT more beer than he's asked us for.  And...

That I know - my husband already runs servers for the university.  And he's already cleared, in advance, the right to use Uni bandwidth as long as it's for an "educational purpose" - which TC can qualify for, given that we're educating about religious stuff. Cheesy

So it really DOES come down to just needing a box - and he already knows the people to contact and stuff to GET a box.  That, and writing up the usage nice and pretty so that it fits Uni requirements, just to stay on the sunny side of the rules there.
If that works out, we'll owe Mr HeartShadow a lot of beer too.  Or whatever his tipple is.

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