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Author Topic: Conservative Pagans  (Read 22569 times)
catja6
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« Reply #15: February 08, 2009, 04:08:13 am »

I think we can safely say that the DP of today isn't the DP of the '60s, though.  Ditto for the RP...

Brina

Seriously.  It is deeply disingenuous to pretend that the Republicans and Democrats of today are somehow identical to the party structure and ideology of the 1960s, let alone the 1860s.  Especially since the 1960s were the very time when the parties changed radically (though FDR started the ball rolling):  Democrats, especially  (but not exclusively) Northerners, supported the civil rights movement, against the wishes of die-hard Southern "Dixiecrat" racists, which split the party; eventually the Dixiecrats moved over to the Republican party, where they found a far more congenial environment then the post-1960s Democrat party could be for them.     

It is one of the truisms of American political history that when the Democrats threw their hats in with the civil rights movement, they lost the South, which turned Republican.  FDR predicted this, when he signed a law allowing African-Americans greater access to better jobs in the military during WWII.  That's the source of the Democrats' so-called "Southern strategy," which favors national candidates from the South, in order to try and win them over.  This was discussed pretty extensively during the election, and much was made of the fact that Obama is the first successful Northern Democrat since Kennedy. 

The Republican party hasn't been the party of Lincoln for a long, long time, as evinced by the fact that African-Americans overwhelmingly vote Democrat.       
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« Reply #16: February 08, 2009, 06:54:28 am »

Republicans are not opposed to civil rights and have not opposed civil rights.  Re-read your 1960s history: it was Democratic government officials who fought to block the civil rights movement.  It was a Democratic governor who stood on the steps of the school in Little Rock, with the National Guard around him, to block the African-American children from entering.  Bull Connor, the sheriff who dispersed groups in civil disobedience with attack dogs, was a Democrat. 



That may have been but look at the parties now.  One wants to take away the right to choose and the other supports gay marriage.  I'll let you guess which one...
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« Reply #17: February 08, 2009, 08:45:56 am »

I think we can safely say that the DP of today isn't the DP of the '60s, though.  Ditto for the RP...

Very true. The Republican Party of today has little in common with the party of Goldwater and Nixon while the Democratic Party of has little in common with the party of Johnson and Humphey.
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« Reply #18: February 08, 2009, 08:35:50 pm »

I think we can safely say that the DP of today isn't the DP of the '60s, though.  Ditto for the RP...

Brina

*sigh*  very true.  Tip O'Neill must be spinning in his grave to see what's happened to his party.

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« Reply #19: February 08, 2009, 09:25:59 pm »

*sigh*  very true.  Tip O'Neill must be spinning in his grave to see what's happened to his party.




Sometimes, I think Ike (the late former U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower) must look at our world from the Afterlife, and wonder why the Republican Party leaders never bothered to listen to his sage advice or his warnings about the future.
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« Reply #20: February 08, 2009, 09:33:08 pm »

Sometimes, I think Ike (the late former U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower) must look at our world from the Afterlife, and wonder why the Republican Party leaders never bothered to listen to his sage advice or his warnings about the future.

It would have been nice if both Democratic and Republican leaders would have listened to his warnings about the problems he saw with the growing military-industrial complex.
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« Reply #21: February 08, 2009, 11:08:40 pm »

It would have been nice if both Democratic and Republican leaders would have listened to his warnings about the problems he saw with the growing military-industrial complex.


True spoken, about the Democrats turning a blind eye to that as well.

Ike was also opposed to the concept of pre-emptive war.
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« Reply #22: February 09, 2009, 09:48:06 pm »

It would have been nice if both Democratic and Republican leaders would have listened to his warnings about the problems he saw with the growing military-industrial complex.

Can't argue with that.

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« Reply #23: February 12, 2009, 02:41:41 am »

Also, US political terminology and discourse is deeply screwed up.  Lots of stuff that gets called far-out liberal in this country would be centrist or even slightly right of center in Europe.


Not just Europe, but Canada as well. During my politics class we compared the parties and found the Dems more to the right of OUR centre rather than left. Of course our Liberals are more centrist and the left parties are the NDP and Green.

And the Conservatives are a mind boggle because there used to be them and the Progressive Conservatives. The PC were much more related to the Republicans, I believe, and very very right-leaning. Then the two parties merged. However there was a split and the two came apart.. and apparently the more conservative side stuck with the Conservative label, while the more leftist went with the Progressive Conservative label.

Of course I could probably be totally wrong. Sunflower would probably know more, as I was a wee one when this all happened, and am going off what I learned in class.


Personally? I like the ideology of communism and socialism. However, it hasn't really worked out well so far. More like certain leaders have bastardized its true meaning (when they said "dictatorship of the proletariat" they meant several people, not just one  Roll Eyes ) and used it to take control of the country by manipulating the people. Could it work? I'd like to think so. It would take a hell of a lot of work though.

However, communism has a lot of negative stigma attached to it, so sometimes I just use socialism as my political standing.
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« Reply #24: February 13, 2009, 04:20:31 am »

Not just Europe, but Canada as well. During my politics class we compared the parties and found the Dems more to the right of OUR centre rather than left. Of course our Liberals are more centrist and the left parties are the NDP and Green.

And the Conservatives are a mind boggle because there used to be them and the Progressive Conservatives. The PC were much more related to the Republicans, I believe, and very very right-leaning. Then the two parties merged. However there was a split and the two came apart.. and apparently the more conservative side stuck with the Conservative label, while the more leftist went with the Progressive Conservative label.

Of course I could probably be totally wrong. Sunflower would probably know more, as I was a wee one when this all happened, and am going off what I learned in class.
Well, there's a lot in there that's confused.  (Not surprising; it is confusing, especially for those who had no reason to be paying attention as it happened.)

... I just deleted three medium-size paragraphs of attempted explanation, because they were merely an introduction to the "simple" quick-n-dirty explanation.  I'm going to go at it a bit differently:

1.  The left/right map is woefully inadequate in describing the Canadian political scene, for two reasons.  One, the often-fractious relationship between Quebec and the rest of Canada has very little to do with left/right, but is a major influence.  Two, practically everybody's base assumptions are mildly socialist (the Social Credit philosophy is a Canadian concoction).

2.  I'm used to it, so I don't often notice it - but in terms of formally-constituted politics, we Canucks are crazy.  This is a statement about how the parties work, but otherwise it's non-partisan.

3.  Wikipedia is an adequate resource for getting a handle on Canadian political history and the parties involved (except insofar as point 2 interferes with handle-getting).

I'll let this simmer in the back of my brain and see if I can come up with something more informative that also bears a passing resemblance to concise.

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« Reply #25: April 13, 2009, 10:15:45 pm »

Well, there's a lot in there that's confused.  (Not surprising; it is confusing, especially for those who had no reason to be paying attention as it happened.)

... I just deleted three medium-size paragraphs of attempted explanation, because they were merely an introduction to the "simple" quick-n-dirty explanation.  I'm going to go at it a bit differently:

1.  The left/right map is woefully inadequate in describing the Canadian political scene, for two reasons.  One, the often-fractious relationship between Quebec and the rest of Canada has very little to do with left/right, but is a major influence.  Two, practically everybody's base assumptions are mildly socialist (the Social Credit philosophy is a Canadian concoction).

2.  I'm used to it, so I don't often notice it - but in terms of formally-constituted politics, we Canucks are crazy.  This is a statement about how the parties work, but otherwise it's non-partisan.

3.  Wikipedia is an adequate resource for getting a handle on Canadian political history and the parties involved (except insofar as point 2 interferes with handle-getting).

I'll let this simmer in the back of my brain and see if I can come up with something more informative that also bears a passing resemblance to concise.

Sunflower

Heh, I'm not going to even go near the whole Canadian politics thing. But as a rule, all of the parties support publicly funded health care and some form of a social safety net.

I'm a Canadian Conservative. I identify as Red Tory. I don't really know who that would put me in line with elsewhere. I do know that Obama's current policies would mix him between Conservative Party of Canada and Liberal Party of Canada, so there's that. But me saying I'm a Canadian Conservative doesn't really delve into the actual policy items I espouse. All I know is that when I took the political compass, I came out a little up and right (and I mean /very/ little) of the dead centre. Oh yeah. By the way.

The Political Compass

Check it out. To be honest, I think the questions are very "Libertarian Socialist" skewed, but I might be wrong.
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« Reply #26: April 14, 2009, 03:53:47 am »

Heh, I'm not going to even go near the whole Canadian politics thing. But as a rule, all of the parties support publicly funded health care and some form of a social safety net.

I'm a Canadian Conservative. I identify as Red Tory. I don't really know who that would put me in line with elsewhere. I do know that Obama's current policies would mix him between Conservative Party of Canada and Liberal Party of Canada, so there's that. But me saying I'm a Canadian Conservative doesn't really delve into the actual policy items I espouse. All I know is that when I took the political compass, I came out a little up and right (and I mean /very/ little) of the dead centre. Oh yeah. By the way.

The Political Compass

Check it out. To be honest, I think the questions are very "Libertarian Socialist" skewed, but I might be wrong.

Thanks for the insight on that Caesonius. Smiley I always want to hear about things from the I guess opposite view of me (i.e. Conservative).

I did take a similar test I think in high school.. I managed to be the most socialist and the only person to strongly want the death penalty re-instated (although it should be an option, not the only choice). I took this one and well... it seems I even put Gandhi to shame.  Undecided

Quote
Economic Left/Right: -6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67
And link to my chart: link

I'm not sure how to feel. Cheesy I do agree that they are skewed (and I feel there should be a "middle" option, as I think perhaps it puts me a lot more liberal/socialist than I am, but mostly accurate).

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« Reply #27: April 14, 2009, 08:21:35 am »


Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.33

Not a lot of surprises there really for me. I did think that the questions were more nuanced in the answers available to the mor left/liberal issues.
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« Reply #28: April 14, 2009, 01:35:06 pm »

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.33

Not a lot of surprises there really for me. I did think that the questions were more nuanced in the answers available to the mor left/liberal issues.

That's how I felt when I took the test, yeah. The questions don't seem to be particularly neutral in their wording, but it's still pretty good. Are there any other tests out there that people know about, out of curiosity?
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« Reply #29: April 14, 2009, 02:03:19 pm »

That's how I felt when I took the test, yeah. The questions don't seem to be particularly neutral in their wording, but it's still pretty good. Are there any other tests out there that people know about, out of curiosity?

There are a few that shouldn't be either/or like the question: "In criminal justice, punishment should be more important than rehabilitation."

If your talking non-violent crime, rehabilitation is the right way to go but if you're talking about a serial killer, no amount of rehabilitation would work.

Anyway, my score was:

Economic Left/Right: -6.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00
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